Theresa Mueller, CCIM, runs an international commercial brokerage with over 65,000 contacts in her network, brokering everything from Chicagoland warehouses to Caribbean beachfront resorts and cross-border 1031 exchanges. In this episode, she breaks down how international real estate deals actually get financed without a US lender, why AI still can't replace the human trust brokers build, and why sticking to one asset class is the real path to long-term wealth.
Episode 33: The Art of the International Deal with Theresa Mueller
How do you evaluate a commercial real estate opportunity when the property, financing, legal system, and local market may all be in another country? For Theresa Mueller, CCIM, the answer starts with relationships, trusted partners, careful listening, and the flexibility to structure a deal in more than one way.
In this episode, Mike and Zach sit down with Theresa, founder, CEO, and designated managing broker of Trelleum Real Estate. She shares how an engineering background, early real estate investments, and client questions about return on investment led her from consulting into commercial brokerage and eventually into international dealmaking.
Theresa explains how the Certified International Property Specialist designation and conferences such as Expo Real and MIPIM helped her build a global network. With more than 65,000 contacts in her database, she acts as a real estate matchmaker, connecting buyers, sellers, brokers, lenders, and local experts across the United States, Latin America, the Caribbean, and beyond.
We also explore the creative side of capital: seller financing, joint ventures, domestic collateral for overseas purchases, and local or cross-border lenders. Theresa emphasizes that she does not need to know every law in every country herself; she needs reliable boots on the ground and strategic partners who can move each transaction forward.
You’ll hear why the spreadsheet never tells the whole story, how due diligence exposes hidden assumptions, where AI can help without replacing human judgment, and why disciplined investors often begin by mastering one asset class before expanding into new markets or geographies.
“There’s not just one option. There’s many variables.”
“You really need to hear what buyers and sellers want, which sometimes the math doesn’t capture.”
“Time kills deals.”
“I like to think that there’s always opportunity. In a buyer’s market or seller’s market, there’s always some kind of opportunity.”
Theresa Mueller, CCIM, is the founder, CEO, and designated managing broker of Trelleum Real Estate. She brings three decades of experience to commercial property transactions in local and global markets.
Her engineering degree from the University of Illinois and early experience with Anderson Consulting, now Accenture, shaped her analytical approach. She began as an investor, moved from residential into commercial brokerage, and expanded across asset classes as clients brought her increasingly complex opportunities.
Theresa founded Trelleum Real Estate in 2004. She and her team connect local and international clients with the buyers, sellers, lenders, brokers, and specialists needed to move complex transactions forward. She also teaches commercial real estate to residential agents exploring the field.
A skilled negotiator and networker, Theresa is active in real estate organizations worldwide. She also volunteers, chairs commercial committees, enjoys book clubs and podcasts, travels, and balances her love of food with exercise.
Connect with Theresa Mueller through Trelleum Real Estate, follow the company on LinkedIn, or email info@theresamueller.com
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**Theresa Mueller, CCIM** (0:00) Most investors, they like to stick to one asset class, right? Because they're going to make mistakes no matter what. You're always going to have failures in business ventures, real estate ventures, but you want to minimize it. So, I would say a lot of the successful investors typically stick to one asset class. They might grow in size, right? So, uh the easiest for most people to understand is going into multifamily. So they understood buying a house. They understand what you need when you live somewhere. So they might start with a 2 to four unit and then move up from there. That typically is the gateway.
INTRO (voiceover) (0:00)
Most people think saving money is the answer. But the truth is saving only gets you to zero. Join Mike and Zach as they flip the script from saving to earning, from zero to unlimited potential.
Mike Seidl (0:00)
Welcome to Save to Zero. Well, hello everybody. Thank you for tuning in to episode number 33 of the Save to Zero podcast where we are focused on growth versus savings. Why? Because when you save, you can save to goose eggs zero. So, there's a floor. But when it comes to growth, you can just grow infinitely. And that's what we're focused on is growth. Today, we're very lucky to have on Terresa Mueller from Neapville, Illinois. She is the CEO, founder, and designated broker of Trellium Real Estate. She has approximately three decades of experience in the real estate world, and she holds an engineering degree from the University of Illinois. What I find interesting is not only does she do commercial real estate and residential, but she does international real estate, and I personally have not met a lot of people that have done international real estate. So, this is going to be a really fun conversation. Teresa, thanks for coming on. and we appreciate your time.
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (1:55)
Thank you very much. I appreciate the opportunity to talk about whatever you want to talk about.
Mike Seidl (2:00)
All right.
Zach Richards (2:01)
Awesome.
Mike Seidl (2:02)
Let's go. So, can you just give us I I tried to do a simple overview. Did I miss anything from the 50,000 foot overview that you'd like to add in?
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (2:10)
Well, you are correct. I uh manage an international commercial brokerage. Um I predominantly focus on commercial international uh the residential side. I typically have brokers that help. Uh same thing with some of the smaller mom and pop. Um so we are a brokerage that service a lot of different needs. Uh but me personally, I do enjoy the international commercial real estate side. Uh one thing that also I am doing, I teach commercial real estate to residential agents who are thinking about doing more commercial. So, uh, that's something that I offer through our local association and people could get CE credit or any participants can have CE credit through the state if it's something they're interested in. I'm sure I have other endeavors, but uh, that are noteworthy, but that's the real estate realm.
Mike Seidl (3:03)
Certainly. Fantastic. Okay, so let me ask, how does somebody with an engineering degree get into real estate? That's the first thing that popped off at me.
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (3:03)
Well, um, oddly, I started in geology, uh, which was a super fun major. I I had all of the amenities and luxuries of a major university and all the intimacy of a small college because, uh, we only had about a dozen people in a graduating class. So, I really loved my geology experience. But, um, when I went to my first job expo, people would say, "Well, what do you do with a geology degree?" like how is that helpful? And so then I decided to switch to engineering thinking, oh, I I need a job. So I'm going to I'll get my masters in engineering only to work for myself almost my whole life. So I uh I then worked for Anderson Consulting, now Accenture, outside of uh grad school, which was a super fun experience. Got to travel to many locations. uh actually really loved my job there, but every time I sat on the bench, I kept on thinking, was this what I'm supposed to be doing with the rest of my life? Does this make sense? So, um I had already been an investor in real estate. Um, I always had sort of an obsession where I would memorize floor plans and um, and I started residential real estate and um, but I quickly switched to commercial because people would start asking me, oh, how do I calculate the ROI, the return on investment on this or you know what what what what should I look for in investment property? So, and then as people left Accenture, uh, some of my colleagues that they they're all type A personality, entrepreneurial saying, oh, I want to start this business, can you help me find retail space or office space? Then it became warehouse space. So, I sort of covered all the different asset classes. Uh, and and then ultimately got into international, which I'm sure you'll ask some questions about.
Mike Seidl (5:08)
You are correct. We will.
Zach Richards (5:10)
Yes.
Mike Seidl (5:12)
This seems like a great segue. We're there. Tell us about international. Why that versus US?
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (5:18)
Okay. So, um over a decade ago, I don't know exactly the year. Uh I had a colleague who is near and dear to my heart. Um I've done um webinars with him and he said to me, Teresa, you travel all the time. Why do you not have the CIPS uh designation? I go, I don't even know what you're talking about. and that stood for certified international property specialist and it's a designation that you can get through the National Association of Realtors. So I went and took this class and then you have to submit your portfolio to qualify for the designation and then you pay some few hundred per year to keep this designation and it gave you access to a few other thousand people who had the same designation. Well, then I just started showing up at international events, uh, such as Expo Rale, that's in Germany, uh, which happens to coincide with October Fest. So, that's pretty nifty. Um,
Mike Seidl (6:19)
but wait a minute. You're going there just for business though, right?
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (6:23)
Oh, just business. If I just happen to be happen to land on my hand, what was I supposed to do? And be dancing on tables. Well, you know, that's kind of a business gig, right? So, um I do have some very fun videos from Munich. Uh I could, you know, there was like these pe people who surf on a dam and uh all kinds of fun October Fest activities that happen there. So, I'll throw random things out there on Instagram or YouTube. Uh I'm not very consistent, I have to tell you. Um but if I happen to think of something wherever I travel, I like to throw that stuff out out there on uh either my Instagram or Tik Tok or YouTube. Um, and then have more of my business stuff on LinkedIn and you know, buyer beware if you're on Facebook because who knows what I'll put there. Anyway, um, I would go to other international events. Another really, uh, big one that I highly recommend anyone go to if you are thinking um, larger scale commercial and international is Mipum. And, uh, again, not too shabby of a place to visit. Southern France in March. And that happens every single year and lots of seauite people, investors, uh vendors, um all all kinds of different individuals who are in the larger commercial real estate space. Now, it typically is more European centric uh not necessarily uh focused on the US, but I go there first. I go there as a Chicago cheerleader, but if you're not interested in Chicago land area, that's okay because I um am going all over the US at major uh venues such as CCIM, Exchange meetings, N meetings. So, I'm regularly going out throughout the US collaborating with other brokers. And when I go there, I say, "Okay, not Chicago. Then what are you looking for? You looking for warehouse in the middle of Missouri? Are you looking for beachfront property? What is it? Because I can connect people. Uh and so from there, I have had requests for acreage, for data centers. I've had requests for luxury hotels, uh beachfront luxury hotels. Um but not just in the US. It wound up expanding to the Caribbean, Latin America and Caribbean. And part of that is, you know, I would have listings. I started getting listings. I have a listing in a a resort in St. Lucia or even something as tiny as 3.2 million out of an island east of Nicaragua. So, by the way, when people say, "Oh, I could never afford a resort. I could do that." I go, "Yeah, you can. You'd be surprised. You know, 3 million sounds like a lot to most people." But if you have a lender involved, you have staff involved, you know, it actually is something that's very doable for many people. But in any event, when you go to the Caribbean, there's no coordinated MLS where everyone's putting everything in one MLS. I could say that for the US, too. It's not just one one service that everyone's putting it into, but there is several databases that anyone could participate. Whereas, when you go out throughout um Latin America and Caribbean, that really doesn't exist. But I exist. So, I'm a very good networker and you say, "All right, what are you looking for?" And that's what I'm always doing. Matchmaker for what are you what are you looking to buy? What are you looking to sell? I'm a matchmaker for real estate.
Mike Seidl (10:00)
Well, let me ask this. You brought up something because Zach and I in our company, we're private money lenders. So, we're lending within the US generally single family, but we do some commercial, multif family, etc. And it's all pure private capital. my set part of my money, part of Zach's money and then a small community that we've created. But if you come to me as a lender, if you say outside the US, I immediately say not interested simply because I know the US laws. Uh well, excuse me, I have attorneys that know the US laws and I can handle it if in the worst case scenario and I always have to be prepared for worst case, I have to foreclose. How do you how do people connect with lenders in Nicaragua?
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (10:00)
Well, first of all, there's always more choices than just having lenders, right? There could be people who JV in the deal. You could have the seller uh provide seller financing. So, for example, my St. Lucia one, it's um listed at 11.5 million. And they said, "We'll finance 80%." You know, if it's a worthy person, you know, repeatable business for them, we are willing to finance it. So, those are my first line of attack. you know, not even having a lender if that's going to be difficult. Um, another tactic, um, which you could maybe participate is if someone is buying something outside the country, they're not getting the money from outside the country. They might say, I'll take an equity loan out on something that I have, right? So, you might say, oh, they have collateral here. Another way you could look at it from a lender standpoint is okay, I don't really care how the asset performs or what I don't need any kind of appraisal. What do they have? Do they have stocks and bonds that I could use as collateral? Do they have other real estate that I could use as collateral? And then the other scenario is I do find lenders outside of the country whether and some of them are actually from the US they lend outside the country or it's lenders um in that particular country. So there's not just one option right and that's the way I think about every single deal. There's not just one option. There's many variables and figure out what does the buyer want? What does the seller want and how do we make it happen?
Zach Richards (11:14)
So maybe maybe this is the answer to that question I'm about to ask, but what are like some of the big challenges about doing international real estate versus the US? Like all these different countries, all these different laws. H how does that work?
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (12:29)
I think every deal is challenging these days, whether it's in the US or outside the US. Um for a variety of factors, however, um I will not propose to be an expert in any one country cuz I'm not. And so what you have to do is you have to have strategic partnerships where you have either boots on the ground um and or experts that can help facilitate the process. So I don't expect to be an expert in all the laws, you know, how how title is taken, how is the money transacted. That's why we have partnerships, right? So that there are other people that are coming to the table to make it happen.
Zach Richards (13:10)
Okay? So, somebody comes to you and wants to buy a property in in a country you've never worked in. How do you go about that? Do you use your network to try to find people that you can work with or
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (13:21)
So, in my database, in my CRM, uh I have over 65,000 people that I um have a
Mike Seidl (13:29)
Wow.
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (13:30)
Yeah. some level of relationship. Now, they're not all my best friends. Not every single one of them comes to my birthday party. Uh that would be quite a party, right?
Zach Richards (13:38)
That would be that would be a lot.
Mike Seidl (13:38)
Hey, it'd be like October Fest.
Zach Richards (13:43)
Yeah, there you go.
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (13:45)
Well, NIPAM itself has like over 20ome thousand people just at that conference, right? So, I don't think conferences are as large as they used to be. Uh, in part because of techniques like this where we're online having conversations. Um, but these online conversations don't replace the in person. So, I still have plenty of colleagues that they need to meet someone in person before there's going to be some level of trust. And, you know, I regularly go to exchange meetings and in that group, they want to see you show up. It's not enough to just be on a Zoom or a phone call. If you're consistently showing up, they know who you are. They know what your work ethic is. They know that you're there to try to get something done and work in their best interest.
Zach Richards (14:16)
That makes sense. Especially if you're talking about tens of millions of dollars on these deals, right?
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (14:42)
And that's why, you know, you're probably maybe going to even ask about AI. Well, for sure AI could replace some brokers, but not all brokers because we still live in a world where there's a human connection that's expected. And AI doesn't know everything that goes on in our heads. I mean, maybe Elon Musk is working on that. Someone told me that there's like some way to suck it out of your brain. Um, which is simultaneously cool and creepy, but we still have that need to put parts together that AI cannot. Will uh some people be replaced? Yes. Some of these tedious tasks, you know, I have, you see in my name, I don't know if that shows up when you do the podcast or, you know, screening or whatever. It's CCIM. I like to call that like the PhD of commercial real estate. Well, at some point, yeah, AI is going to be able to do a lot of that math. I'll say you it's not totally there. I mean, there's models that are out there that you can use for math. But in me teaching that commercial real estate class, I told AI, okay, here's what I want to teach her, some of the concepts, here are some examples, etc. Put together a PowerPoint presentation. And it did. It puts together. I had to go through make um you know some corrections and you know subtract add whatever but it didn't even put together basic math of calculating an NOI um the net operating income and this is just really simple addition math so you can't just throw anything in chat GBT or claude and expect it to come out with this perfect model. I realize that it's with time some of this AI is becoming better and better at um analyzing properties but it's not there and then what's not also not there is hey I trust that you're looking out on my behalf and that you can look at this AI model and say does this make sense is this a proper back of the envelope calculation so we're not we're not obsolete yet
Mike Seidl (16:46)
well you bring up a very very important point and it's something that I've spoken with people about in the past. It's you can have AI people have AI answering their inbound calls which I think is completely wrong. They have AI making outbound calls etc. And I think what people are missing is the human connection. We are pack animals. We like other humans around us. the what people who don't want other humans around them. I hate to say this, but they seem to me anyway to be the people that go and do these mass shootings. They're loners. Think of Ted Gazinski, the uni bomber. We need people around us. We need the human connection. Um even if it's a tight circle. Not all of us have 65,000 friends like you do, but we we need a circle. And I'm really glad you said that because it's so important. How do you see someone such as yourself differentiating yourself going forward when everyone's many people are going to get lazy and use AI? How do you see that as a differentiator for you? Uh well
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (17:16)
the very easy answer is first that 65,000 connections but specifically they're coming from different directions you know and so there are very few individuals that have all the same um groupings that I do right that I'm part of CCIM I'm part of fiatsu which is another major international group I regularly go to I regularly go to exchange groups I also collaborate with residential broker Not because I'm selling residential myself, but they may have the connections. So, I'm going down all the major highways and have those overlapping circles. So, just that combination itself, I don't really know anyone else like myself. So, um it's a little bit crazy sometimes. Uh and I definitely could always use more help and working with more brokers, etc. Uh and to your growth strategy. I'm always welcoming new individuals into my circle and I service the best I can.
Mike Seidl (18:58)
Excellent. So, with your degree in engineering, I would suspect that you're pretty good at numbers and go pretty deep. How do you think that that's helped you in real estate and your ability to process these deals quickly and know that, yeah, this is a good one or yeah, no, that's not going to work.
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (19:17)
Well, there's several different answers to that. So, yes, I could do the math. Um, and is it easy? Yes. Uh, I actually don't love doing deep analysis. Um, I can, uh, but it's not my favorite thing to do. But the more important consideration, again, a nonI um, aspect, is you really need to hear what buyers and sellers want, which sometimes the math doesn't capture. You can go and throw someone a cap rate or whatever, but sometimes it's not that's not what they're looking for. In fact, you have I have some clients that they're willing to take a loss to offset their taxes somewhere else. Right? So, they may say, "Oh, I I'm okay taking a loss here because it offsets what I'm trying to do over here." Uh, or land banking. If you're buying land, you're getting you're not getting any return today. So that's a long-term play and a lot of the numbers are speculative and actually part of the CCIM you do a five-year analysis which is fine for institutional but most of us can't tell what's going to happen in 5 years. You only have what's in front of your face right now. You could say all right well here's the performance last few years. Here's what the likely performance is going to be the next year. But there's a lot of variables that we can't control whether it be weather or uh other situations that um it's out outside of our control. So it's one tempering in there's a lot of risk but also what is your client's risk? What do they want? What are their financial objectives? Um and you know they don't might not want to sell now where they're selling into an different asset. And that's actually the number one thing that I learned in these exchange meetings is you need to hear what they're trying to do because it's not just always a price. It's there's always more to a deal than just what is the end price? What is it going to make me? A lot of variables you have to take into consideration.
Zach Richards (21:20)
Qualitative things that are that you're not going to get with just a spreadsheet.
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (21:25)
Correct.
Zach Richards (21:26)
Excellent point. with with your um I know obviously you're you're a commercial broker, but what does your team look like for managing all these transactions? Is it just you? Do you have other people that that work for you?
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (21:38)
I have other brokers as well as assistants. And then I also rely on people outside of my own company. So, um you know, just today I had an email from another broker and none of my I I showed it to my brokers. They didn't have it. it was for some truck stops or whatever. Um, but I had went and talked to an office uh and I remember there were multiple agents in that office who all had an interest in the trucking industry. So I contacted that managing broker I said I have an opportunity and so again doing the matchmaking it's not always within my company.
Zach Richards (22:16)
Sure. Yeah. That definitely important having that network.
Mike Seidl (22:16)
So you have access to a large uh deal flow, if you will, uh within your network and uh people connecting you and with you and all of the uh matchmaking that you're doing. Is there something within a real estate transaction on that you see over and over again where on the surface it looks like a good deal, but because of your experience and knowledge in all these different areas, you're able to say, "Yeah, no, you need to look look a little deeper." Does that make sense?
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (22:52)
Well, due diligence can produce uh a lot of different scenarios. Uh you have to generally assume that there's something wrong with the numbers, right? If it's too good to be true, it is, right? So, you have to always assume um you know, a lot of times I'll see a cap rate and they haven't taken in account management fees. Um you know, that's a a a user I'll just give an example. I even recently sold this is one of the smaller properties I had in the Chicagoland area. Um had some auto repair and it's userowned. And so when I'm putting it out there, I put it from the perspective of someone wants to own the real estate. You could do it several different ways. You could be an owner user or you can hire a management team or you can lease out the property and say here's what my return is. So whatever the numbers are, you have to question, okay, if it's a this fantastic cap rate, why is that? Um, and then looking at, you know, value ad opportunities, are they really there? Um, environmental issues, you know, that tends to be, you said you lend a multifamily. typically you're not going to have environmental issues, but you know, you certainly have to be very cautious with that with even still gas stations or um anywhere where there was chemicals involved uh and that could derail it. I can't say there's any one scenario. Maybe you could say communication time kills deals that that could happen. Um maybe someone and maybe another broker has another opinion that it's just one thing that's always the same. I I find that's why I said every deal is challenging these days for a variety of reasons. You know, it could be people expect returns from the yestery year and that's not what's currently happened because there's a lot of cash out there to invest. But a lot of people are sitting on it waiting for some major crash so that they could just swoop in with all their cash and buy a bunch of real estate or uh whatever they're seeking. So yeah, I guess I don't have an answer there. There's always one thing, but yes, due diligence is always super important in every deal. There's
Zach Richards (22:52)
always some hair, right? Like no deal is easy. Like I don't know about how you feel, Mike, but whenever you do alone and everything's going super well and there's been no hair until the very end, I'm like, "All right, the other shoe is going to drop at some point. Something's coming here. There's no way this is going to be this easy."
Mike Seidl (25:21)
Oh, absolutely. When something comes across and it looks really good, I say, "Okay, I know I'm missing something because nothing is this good."
Zach Richards (25:28)
Exactly.
Mike Seidl (25:28)
So, and I'm I'm just average intelligence, so I've got to be missing something. Can somebody else take a look at this and tell me what I'm missing? Because I have to be missing something. Mhm. There's just no way. So, yeah. So, you said there's a lot of money on the sidelines waiting for this big crash to come. I assume some of that money is newbie or first time money. What do you see?
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (25:53)
There's a lot of institutional money. Um, a lot of family offices. They're they have a lot of cash sitting on the side. I could even say that with some of the businesses. So, sure. I I feel that people are not aggressively investing um that they're sort of waiting for some level of fallout um through our economy in the US economy. Um it's different for every Latin American country in the in the Caribbean. Uh in general, I also find that people have much higher expectations in terms of returns when they go outside the US. A lot of US investors don't invest outside the US. I mean, look how many people don't even have a passport, let alone invest outside the US. Um, and it's just because everyone's weighing their own risk and it's knowhow. You know, a lot of investors in the US, this is what they know. This is the lane they stick to. They know how 1031s uh work, which brings me to another topic on uh international 1031. A lot of people don't realize they can have a portfolio outside the US that then then they start trading up and defer their taxes. Most people don't even realize that exists. So like let's just give the example of the some of the listings that I gave. Say someone went and bought my little $3.2 million resort and they said, "You know what? Uh I did the value ad. I'm now going to sell this for double what I bought it for. Uh, but I don't want to be taxed on all that money that I just made. They can then go buy well hopefully I won't still have my listing at St. Lucia, but they can go buy the one in St. Lucia for 11.5 million and defer their taxes. Now, not every country applies and uh the rules are different and it is a little bit more complicated than in the US, but it is possible and I have those connections to make that happen. Well, for
Mike Seidl (26:39)
somebody who wants to get into international, what's a way for them to get into it? Connect with you and then you can walk them through the process. Is there some type of training that you do? Um, how does somebody get into international?
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (28:03)
Well, if you are an agent, I do recommend that program, the CIPS program through N. Uh, FIAPSY is another international group that I belong. They have another course. So there are introductory level courses that are available for agents for investors. Um I would be pairing with agents who are experienced in um going outside the country andor if there's a specific asset. So, uh, you know, one of my client, um, requirements right now for a major institutional buyer is they want, um, 165 to 200 plus keys in Latin America or the Caribbean, uh, that has beachfront. If it's distressed or they're moving on or whatever, they said, "We'll look at it. They're they the location is not as important. they'll look at anything in Latin America, Caribbean, that's beachfront, um because they're trying to expand their portfolio right now. But I would say uh yeah, pairing with the right agent that can help you um and that has a team to help facilitate um a a much more smooth transaction. It's never going to be perfect. It's never going to be perfectly smooth, but someone who has those right connections, whether it's me or otherwise.
Mike Seidl (29:24)
Sure. If somebody is used to investing in the US, and I assume that's going to be most of the people are going to listen to this podcast, why would they want to invest in other countries for diversity? Because obviously not all economies hit at the same time or diversification.
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (29:43)
Yes, I would um yes, first of all say diversification, right? Um, some might be politically if they don't agree with our political system, they may want to exit. Uh, in fact, the US, this is the first time it was the the lowest immigration we've ever had and the most outbound we've ever had because they didn't agree with the current administration, but that could have been a prior administration. Anytime there is exiting because they don't agree with what the policies are. Um, so that's one consideration. So uh diversification uh leaving the country um it could be um a much better return. So a lot of times what you seek outside the US may have a better return than what you have here. I will say uh when I go to for example Germany people are looking to invest the returns there are much less than they are here. So, it's not something I typically put in front of people's faces unless they happen to want to go to Germany for a regular basis. And so, um, maybe that people in Germany don't want to hear that, but their threshold for returns is not as high as our expectations in the US.
Zach Richards (30:59)
Okay. H have you seen in the last several years or decades, whatever time frame you want to use, like different trends in which countries people are interested in, like have people kind of lost interest in Europe because the returns aren't there or does it change? How does that work?
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (31:17)
It does change and I will say I'm not an expert in the trends. Um but I can say where um areas start becoming hot again. So, I mean, if you remember like back in the day when we were growing up, um, in C, there was places in Mexico like Cancun used to be really cool. It's not that you can't go to Cancun and have a good time at the beach, but then people go towards Maya Rivera, Tulum area, um, or like now some of the hotter areas are Costa Rica, Roatan, which I have some listings there too. But the point is, and Bise, right? So those were not hot places when you know 30 years ago it was all everyone just went to Mexico. But as you have more flights that are um put into place and more Americans going to those countries on a regular basis then you start seeing expansion into multiple locations where Americans feel safe because it's not just politics uh and um language. There's many variables that they're considering and the more Americans that go to different countries, the more safe you feel going there. But if you're it's the first time right in the middle of nowhere, it's a nobody place. Well, the return could be really really great if it someday becomes popular.
Mike Seidl (32:40)
Yeah. True. Gotcha. So, I know that they say when it comes to the stock market that you shouldn't try and time the stock market because quite simply you can't. Um, you might get lucky now and then, but you can't. It's only these YouTubers that think they can. Um, you talked about people having money on the sidelines waiting for something to happen so they can come in with all their cash. What are your thoughts about trying to time the market? Does anybody have any system set up for doing that or do you think in your experience that you should just buy it and don't try and do that?
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (33:19)
I like to think that there's always opportunity in a buyer market or sellers market. There's always some kind of opportunity because land is limited. Now I realize that they're creating some land in Dubai and you know so that is possible but real estate is finite on Earth. I you know maybe we'll at I don't know if in our lifetime there'll be places for us to live in space. Uh that seems farfetched. Uh but I'm not banking on that. I'm banking on hey we have finite resources that as far as we know people need in the minimum a place to live right uh commercial operates differently but you know multif family is in in the um arena land is in the arena of commercial so no matter what there's opportunity and yes it is very difficult at time some people get lucky and are able to do it uh if you you know have your ear to the ground maybe you'll learn about opportunities that you think, okay, this is a hot and growing area. Um, so timing the market, it's not for everyone. I I think that there are some possibilities, but no matter what, there's some kind of opportunity. And that's that goes back to what I was talking about hearing what buyer and seller want uh and matching those. And sometimes you can get a deal that wouldn't otherwise happen and it may become fortuitous in the end.
Mike Seidl (34:51)
Gotcha. So, I've heard and clearly that's why I'm asking the question for myself that um flex space is popular as well as I've just heard recently in the last 6 months about salon space where you have a building and it's broken up among bunch of small operators such as hairdressers and so on and so forth, but they're individual spaces, but they all come together. What are your thoughts on those or what other what other um assets are uh people gravitating towards now?
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (35:24)
Uh well it depends on the day of the week the month policy etc. I will say for the foreseeable future multifamily will be a returning asset. It might not be the highest but it will be a returnable because we don't have enough housing for the number of people um and what our growth projections are. And I think as you remember in 2006 um after that crisis a lot of builders went under whatever 50% of the builders went on under and uh many of them never returned and they never matched the pace at which they were building prior to that. in part uh because of the number of builders, in part um just a little afraid, gunshy post post that time frame. And so multif family will continue to deliver even if it's not the highest return. Um yes, you have to look at alternate act um uh assets for higher return. I'm certainly familiar with, for example, like you said, the salon suites uh concept. I I've had clients like that where they went in space, they divvied it up and rent it. You know, some of them like that model because it's very easy. It's a, you know, they get paid week to week or monthto month and it's easy to kick someone out if they don't pay and so it is a higher return. Uh, a lot lot of TI um on that one. Tenant improvement um money is expected. Flex space again that depends on the area. What kind of flex space? Um, also for the foreseeable future will need industrial for several reasons. if you put data centers in that camp, right? Um so land and um because you can't have all the AI without the data centers etc. and um you know people buy online. Again shopping stores have not completely gone away. In fact a lot of retail um does well pairing with online. Uh it's just we still need industrial space. I will say that vacancy has increased. Um I mean it depends again what region you're at but all the asset classes will have some usefulness depending on where you're at. Are you a logistics hub? As it happens I'm out of the Chicagoland area specifically. I live in Neapville which is a western suburb out of Chicago. Uh you know people complain all the time about the politics and you know blah blah blah people leaving. But Chicago's not going away. We're the largest fresh body of water and uh we are a logistics hub with all the major train lines you know all major airlines coming through more or less the center of the country so you will continue to invest in places like flex space multifamily you know all the assets will have some value now repurposing is another right so office post um pandemic was really in a not so great situation And um some of the uh central business um districts are looking at ways to repurpose it into multifamily. Um if they can, it's not always as easy. It might not financially make sense. Um sometimes it makes more sense to just tear the building down, although you can buy some buildings 10 cents of the dollar. However, office space in the suburbs, certainly in the Chicagoland area, um has uh started filling up because people still need medical help, right? So, you see a lot of medical users, pe uh attorneys and CPAs, people still want to go to those offices and see them in person. So, office space is not been obliterated. Um, in fact, people still ask me this question. Um, postco, so like commercial, isn't it dead? Because like no one's going into the office. I was like, well, if office was the only asset class, it'd probably not be great, but there's other asset classes, right? Cuz are you still going to get your haircut? Are you going out to eat? Do you go to the grocery store? So, you can't go online to get your haircut
Zach Richards (36:00)
online. It's all coming from a industrial building at some point.
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (36:00)
So, it's just keeping in mind that there's multiple asset classes, multiple geographies. Some places it's doing better than others. You know, it also depends on how where the population moves, if they stay in place. Um, they don't migrate as much as they used to cuz, you know, people used to go where the jobs were and now people don't want to. They want to do things online. Uh, which by the way, that's what has increased more people moving abroad. Um, if anyone said, "Hey, I want to move abroad." Even though I'm not typically doing residential, I know who the major developers are. Uh, and I would connect them and say, "Here are some good developers." Cuz that's something that you have a concern if you're moving abroad. Like, what am I getting at, right? Like, when we buy a house here, we expect the plumbing is going to work. You could go there and the plumbing maybe not be part of the package deal when you're buying new construction. So,
Mike Seidl (40:34)
wow.
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (40:34)
You you wanted to put people with the right developers.
Mike Seidl (40:38)
Yeah,
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (40:39)
there may be a shower head, but there might not be any pipes behind the wall.
Mike Seidl (40:43)
Wow. Okay, that's a little scary. Interesting. Now, I know in Europe they don't expect to have AC, and I know that's an issue over there right now.
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (40:53)
Well, they might might be getting it soon.
Zach Richards (40:56)
Yeah, right.
Mike Seidl (40:56)
Might get it now. Um, so for somebody who is interested in going into commercial real estate, what is a way for them to uh get uh gained long-term wealth while still being disciplined in it?
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (41:15)
H, that's a simple answer. Uh, I think typically most investors, they like to stick to one asset class, right? because they're going to make mistakes no matter what. You're always going to have failures um in business ventures, real estate ventures. Uh but you want to minimize it. So I would say a lot of the successful investors typically stick to one asset class. They might grow in size, right? So uh the easiest for most people to understand is going into multif family. So they understood buying a house. They understand what you need when you live somewhere. So they might start with a two to four unit and then move up from there. That typically is the gateway, right? But then if you are more flexibly minded going into flex space, right, or whatever, you might say, "All right, I want to focus on well, buying land is more speculative, but you might say, "Oh, I'm going to um look at just industrial spaces." So I would say in general sticking to one line for investments uh it doesn't mean that you can't diversify later but as a starting point and growing and really understanding the metrics uh most of the investors I know uh stick to one asset class and not necessarily the same geography. There could be opportunities if you are buying into multiple asset classes but it just gets more more difficult to track. Most of the investors I know who are well off, they are not sticking to one geography.
Mike Seidl (42:49)
Gotcha. Okay. Well, this has been great. We're pulling we're coming up on 45 minutes. I know that's we generally aim for. That's what we tell our guests and we we're very mindful of your time. We appreciate you sharing it with us. If and when people want to get a hold of you, what is the best way to get a hold of you? And everybody will have this information in the show notes as well. But Teresa, if you can tell people how to get a hold of you so that they can be 65,000 in1 in at your uh October Fest birthday party, how do they get a hold of you?
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (43:22)
Uh well, the easiest way is email. That's my to-do list, which is info@tresa.com, exactly as my name is written. Um and my number is 63071599.99. and I am my well my company both both of my companies um I do also have investment properties that's not online but I have the CR kickstart uh that's on all social media as well as Trellum uh whatever you use Tik Tok Instagram Facebook LinkedIn YouTube is there some social media that I don't know about that I should be using I please tell me
Zach Richards (43:57)
probably there's there's so many probably
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (44:00)
there's probably some AI social media that's right around the corner That's there. You're the first to hear about it.
Mike Seidl (44:09)
That's funny. Well, Teresa, this has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much for coming on with us, sharing your knowledge, and uh it's been fun. Thank you very much.
Theresa Mueller, CCIM (44:19)
Thank you. I appreciate the questions and look forward to talking in the future.
Mike Seidl (44:24)
Awesome. All right. 35 33 in the books.