Buying a rental is the easy part—the real work starts after closing. Massachusetts investor Marianna Osipenko shares how she grew from duplexes to 30+ unit, value-add multifamily properties in Ohio and Kentucky, revealing the realities of out-of-state management, renovation costs, patient underwriting, and why real estate is ultimately a get-rich-slow business.
Episode 28: The Get Rich Slow Reality of Multifamily Investing with Marianna Osipenko
What if buying the property is only the starting line? Multifamily investing can build lasting wealth, but the real work begins after closing—with renovations, vacancies, operating expenses, property management, and the patience to stabilize one asset before moving to the next.
In this episode, Mike and Zach sit down with real estate investor Marianna Osipenko to explore the practical realities of building an out-of-state multifamily portfolio. Marianna shares how her early interest in real estate, business-brokerage experience, and financial training helped her learn to examine the numbers behind a deal instead of accepting a polished offering memorandum at face value.
We dig into her transition from two- to four-unit properties in Massachusetts to larger value-add assets in Ohio and Kentucky. A difficult renovation during COVID showed Marianna that the work required for a property does not rise in proportion to its unit count—and that more doors under one roof can create valuable economies of scale.
One of our biggest takeaways is that ownership cannot be outsourced. Even with excellent property managers, Marianna stays close to leasing, contractor bids, renovations, and performance. She treats management as a partnership, takes work off the team’s plate when she can, and keeps enough control to pivot quickly when costs or market conditions change.
You’ll also hear how she evaluates markets, why family-sized units can support longer tenancies, how flips provide a creative outlet and occasional cash boost, and why real estate rewards patient, disciplined investors rather than anyone expecting instant passive income.
“The amount of work is not proportional to the number of units.”
“No one’s gonna take as good care of your property as you are.”
“Congratulations, you got a property. Now the real work begins.”
“It’s not a get rich fast. It’s a get rich slow scheme.”
Marianna Osipenko graduated from Babson College in 2003 and later returned for her MBA, completing extensive coursework in real estate finance and investing.
She spent the first 15 years of her career with George & Company, one of New England’s premier business appraisal and brokerage companies. That experience strengthened her ability to analyze financials, understand varied business models, negotiate, and assemble complex transactions.
In 2019, Marianna followed her longtime passion and transitioned into full-time real estate investing. Since then, she has grown an out-of-state portfolio of value-add multifamily properties ranging from 12 to 42 units, with a focus on disciplined underwriting, hands-on asset management, and thoughtful market selection.
Marianna’s communication, negotiation, and financial skills allow her to analyze opportunities quickly, decode complicated financials, and see the potential in a deal. She remains closely involved with her property-management teams and takes ownership of the decisions required to renovate, stabilize, and operate each asset.
Find Marianna Osipenko on Facebook and Instagram, or email marianna@mpowermultifamily.com
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[00:00.1 - 00:04.4] You may have to contribute money to put- cover the debt service and the insurance and all that.
[00:04.4 - 00:09.6] And so people, a lot of people scrape together the money to buy the property, and then that's not all of it.
[00:09.6 - 00:11.5] No, that is by far not all of it.
[00:11.5 - 00:21.4] Like, we're at a point now where we have multiple assets, so we sometimes have to take the cash flow from one property and, like, fund another renovation.
[00:21.4 - 00:27.2] And honestly, it's so frustrating 'cause I feel like, "Oh my God, we finally stabilized this property.
[00:27.2 - 00:30.9] We still have no money from it 'cause now we're using it to stabilize the next one." Yeah.
[00:30.9 - 00:31.4] Yeah, that's true.
[00:31.4 - 00:32.7] Right.
[00:32.7 - 00:32.8] Yeah.
[00:32.8 - 00:33.4] And it becomes like a machine.
[00:33.4 - 00:35.4] And, like, my husband jokes with me sometimes.
[00:35.4 - 00:39.0] He's like, "Where are all these properties you own?" Yeah.
[00:39.0 - 00:39.3] Yeah, right.
[00:39.3 - 00:40.6] Where's all the cash flow?
[00:40.6 - 00:40.6] Yeah.
[00:40.6 - 00:41.7] And I'm just like- Oh, it's coming.
[00:41.7 - 00:42.9] When are you, honey?
[00:42.9 - 00:43.7] And like, come on.
[00:43.7 - 00:43.8] Yes.
[00:43.8 - 00:45.3] You've been telling me that for 10 years.
[00:45.3 - 00:52.5] Most people think saving money is the answer, but the truth is, saving only gets you to zero.
[00:52.5 - 00:59.5] Join Mike and Zach as they flip the script from saving to earning, from zero to unlimited potential.
[00:59.5 - 01:03.2] Welcome to Save to Zero.
[01:03.2 - 01:05.3] Hey, everybody.
[01:05.3 - 01:15.4] Welcome to episode number 28 of the Save to Zero bod- podcast here with, uh, Mariana Osipenko, who is a real estate investor out
[01:15.4 - 01:16.6] of Massachusetts.
[01:16.6 - 01:22.9] She's done a number of flips in mass, but also invests a lot out of state, too.
[01:22.9 - 01:24.7] So Mariana, thanks for coming on.
[01:24.7 - 01:26.6] Thank you so much for having me.
[01:26.6 - 01:28.6] Looking forward to our chat today.
[01:28.6 - 01:31.1] So take us through your background a little bit.
[01:31.1 - 01:35.9] You, you told us that you have a, a degree in real estate finance, which I think you're the first- ...
[01:35.9 - 01:41.0] real estate investor that we've spoken to that actually has a degree in anything related to real estate.
[01:41.0 - 01:42.0] So h- how did you- Sure ...
[01:42.0 - 01:45.5] pick that, and what made you kind of where you ended up today?
[01:45.5 - 01:46.9] Um, yeah, sure.
[01:46.9 - 01:50.0] So I grew up loving real estate.
[01:50.0 - 02:00.2] I was always just really, um, intrigued and curious about, like, physical properties and buildings and just the size and sheer, like, like,
[02:00.2 - 02:03.9] magnitude of, like, going into downtown Boston and seeing all the high-rises.
[02:03.9 - 02:07.4] So as far back as I can remember, I've always been interested in it.
[02:07.4 - 02:17.6] And then when I was in my late teens, my father, who was actually an engineer by profession, ended up getting into some real estate
[02:17.6 - 02:18.2] investing.
[02:18.2 - 02:28.2] So he, you know, he was probably my first window into, like, the investment side and actually owning property, and there was a lot of challenges he navigated,
[02:28.2 - 02:32.5] but there was also a lot of wonderful things I recall from my conversations with him.
[02:32.5 - 02:42.5] Um, like, like all the cash flow he was getting and passive income and how, you know, he had to do the work once to, to get a property and
[02:42.5 - 02:45.2] really stabilize it and get it working well.
[02:45.2 - 02:51.0] Like, a, he was always talking about getting it like a well-oiled machine, but then it would throw off money on a monthly basis.
[02:51.0 - 02:54.8] So I was very intrigued, um, and my interest continued to peak.
[02:54.8 - 02:59.4] So I always knew that I wanted to go into business and focus on real estate.
[02:59.4 - 03:09.9] So I ended up at Babson College, um, undergrad, and I got my degree in entrepreneurship and, and with, like, a marketing minor 'cause there was no real estate
[03:09.9 - 03:11.7] finance as such back then.
[03:11.7 - 03:15.9] But I did take quite a few real estate finance and investing classes.
[03:15.9 - 03:21.2] Unfortunately, when I graduated, I did nothing related to real estate investing.
[03:21.2 - 03:24.3] I actually got into business brokerage, and I did a lot of, like- ...
[03:24.3 - 03:26.6] valuations for companies.
[03:26.6 - 03:37.0] And I sold, um, small to mid-size companies, so I worked kind of, like, on some smaller merger and acquisition work and a lot of trans- um, transitions of privately held companies.
[03:37.0 - 03:47.4] So I did sometimes come across business owners that owned the property they ran their company out of, but I really didn't get into real estate investing
[03:47.4 - 03:50.0] until substantially later in my career.
[03:50.0 - 03:58.3] Um, and then I went back to Babson to get my MBA, and I actually took quite a lot of real estate investing and real estate finance classes.
[03:58.3 - 04:08.5] So I would say Babson, everyone graduates with just an MBA, but I had a lot of real estate classes, so I kinda had a concentration in real estate investing at that
[04:08.5 - 04:08.9] point.
[04:08.9 - 04:19.2] And once I graduated Babson and continued to further my, um, education on real estate and investing, I knew that at some point
[04:19.2 - 04:29.3] I really wanna make the transition into real estate and start, and start kinda building up my own portfolio just from, you know, everything I've learned and all the
[04:29.3 - 04:36.5] interactions I've had with some investors and reading about it and, and, um, you know, watching some videos.
[04:36.5 - 04:45.5] This was, like, in the early stages of YouTube, but just kinda, like, navigating some of the YouTube recordings on people that were in real estate investing.
[04:45.5 - 04:50.0] And I think, um, back then it was, like, Carlton Sheets and then Grant Cardone.
[04:50.0 - 04:52.0] They did a lot of- Oh, yeah.
[04:52.0 - 04:52.0] ...
[04:52.0 - 04:52.9] just selling.
[04:52.9 - 04:55.2] Um, so I don't- I didn't necessarily...
[04:55.2 - 05:03.3] Now that I know a lot, I don't necessarily agree with a lot of what they did, but they made it sound even more exciting, um, and, like, tangible.
[05:03.3 - 05:09.4] So, so I made the transition into real estate investing full-time in 2019.
[05:09.4 - 05:15.1] Do you think your MBA was helpful for you, or do you think you could have gone this far without the MBA?
[05:15.1 - 05:16.9] I'm curious because I hear- Uh- ...
[05:16.9 - 05:21.9] different schools of thought as to whether being on the street is more helpful or having the foundation of-
[05:22.1 - 05:23.4] formal schooling is more helpful.
[05:23.4 - 05:33.4] So I think that's a, that's a challenging question to answer because I'm gonna answer it from my perspective, and my perspective is skewed because I have the MBA and the
[05:33.4 - 05:34.2] formal training.
[05:34.2 - 05:42.2] I will be honest and say I think I could have gotten into real estate investing without any of the formal education.
[05:42.2 - 05:49.7] But what it has really helped me with is making sense of all the financials and understanding the numbers- Sure ...
[05:49.7 - 05:51.4] and looking at it as a business.
[05:51.4 - 05:52.8] So, I just, just from- Sure ...
[05:52.8 - 06:02.9] interacting with a lot of investors, I know my approach to underwriting a deal and even making, like, a high-level determination on whether I wanna pursue something, whether or not,
[06:02.9 - 06:08.2] you know, it's an opportunity that I wanna reach out to a broker and request additional information on.
[06:08.2 - 06:18.2] I think I can pretty quickly, like, summarize all the important factors, pull out all the pertinent key items, and decide whether it's something that is
[06:18.2 - 06:20.1] interesting to pursue or not.
[06:20.1 - 06:30.1] And I, and I think that is partially due to my, like, formal training and looking at the numbers and balance sheets and financials and, and asking a lot of
[06:30.1 - 06:40.2] the tough questions and having a really kinda solid base of, of the financial understanding, but also learning how to think
[06:40.2 - 06:47.3] logically and, and how to ask the right questions and how to, um, peel, you know, peel the onion.
[06:47.3 - 06:48.6] Because there's obviously...
[06:48.6 - 06:57.8] Like, if you get a 20-page offering memorandum from a broker, it obviously is gonna be all, like, roses and, and rainbows and unicorns.
[06:57.8 - 06:58.0] Yeah.
[06:58.0 - 06:59.9] They, they wanna make it look beautiful.
[06:59.9 - 06:60.0] I know.
[06:60.0 - 06:60.0] I know.
[06:60.0 - 07:02.4] They want everyone to be interested in this property, right?
[07:02.4 - 07:03.3] That's their job.
[07:03.3 - 07:04.2] They're trying to sell it.
[07:04.2 - 07:06.1] They're packaging it with a beautiful bow.
[07:06.1 - 07:08.9] But then you, you gotta start looking at it.
[07:08.9 - 07:10.4] You gotta start taking it apart.
[07:10.4 - 07:12.1] You have to understand the market it's in.
[07:12.1 - 07:15.0] You have to understand the condition of the property in it, you know, is in.
[07:15.0 - 07:15.8] What work's been done?
[07:15.8 - 07:17.6] What kind of tenant base do they have?
[07:17.6 - 07:20.5] How, how good of a handle do they have on their expenses?
[07:20.5 - 07:23.4] What's been going on with their numbers over the last few years?
[07:23.4 - 07:32.3] So there's a lot of work that you have to do to kinda deconstruct that beautiful offer, um, offering memorandum and make sense of it.
[07:32.3 - 07:42.4] And I do think that going to Babson and having an official, like, the official training and an MBA probably assisted me with getting
[07:42.4 - 07:43.9] comfortable with doing that.
[07:43.9 - 07:54.4] Now that I've been doing it for many years, I, I, I am fairly confident in saying I believe anyone can do it without the formal training.
[07:54.4 - 08:04.7] I just think the formal training really helps you, like, jump in and, and feel comfortable in looking at those numbers and making
[08:04.7 - 08:06.1] decisions in the beginning.
[08:06.1 - 08:07.3] Gotcha.
[08:07.3 - 08:07.7] Yeah.
[08:07.7 - 08:08.5] I w- That makes sense.
[08:08.5 - 08:09.4] Go ahead, Mike.
[08:09.4 - 08:11.0] I want to go a little, back a little further.
[08:11.0 - 08:20.4] Tell us about your time at George & Company and your work in, um, I guess, M&A and sales of businesses.
[08:20.4 - 08:21.5] Yeah.
[08:21.5 - 08:27.8] So, um, I graduated Babson in 2003, and I started looking at jobs.
[08:27.8 - 08:29.6] And everything that I...
[08:29.6 - 08:32.6] And I got offered quite a few jobs, to be honest.
[08:32.6 - 08:36.9] Um, it was not a great market, but I, I think I was just really good at interviewing.
[08:36.9 - 08:38.5] And I walked in, I was really confident.
[08:38.5 - 08:39.5] I impressed a lot of people.
[08:39.5 - 08:49.7] But all these jobs that I was being offered, I realized that I would probably not enjoy doing them because I was going to be, like, the very bottom of the totem
[08:49.7 - 08:55.4] pole, and they were giving me a very narrow, um, scope of responsibilities.
[08:55.4 - 09:04.8] And literally, like, there was one company I interviewed at, they showed me three spreadsheets in, like, um, like a series of, like, 100 that their company works with.
[09:04.8 - 09:14.5] And they told me, like, "As the associate number one, um, that the position we're offering you, you get to own two of these spreadsheets.
[09:14.5 - 09:18.2] And there's really only, like, three line items you can control.
[09:18.2 - 09:28.2] And really what, what we mean by you control them is if something doesn't look right in those line items, you have to call, like, a senior associate in, and then they escalate
[09:28.2 - 09:33.9] it up the ladder, and we try to figure out what's going on." And I was like, "Oh, my God." And they had a big portfolio.
[09:33.9 - 09:38.0] Um, they actually managed a lot of properties, and they owned some real estate.
[09:38.0 - 09:39.1] They were an investment firm.
[09:39.1 - 09:45.3] And I, and I wanted to get in there because I wanted to have exposure, obviously, to being in, like, a real estate investment company.
[09:45.3 - 09:54.0] But the, the responsibilities they were gonna give me were such, like, a sliver of anything that I, like, that, that I wanted- ...
[09:54.0 - 09:54.2] that- Yeah.
[09:54.2 - 09:56.2] You're empowered to own a spreadsheet.
[09:56.2 - 09:58.9] Yeah, you're empowered to own- How does that make you feel, right?
[09:58.9 - 09:59.1] No.
[09:59.1 - 09:59.3] No.
[09:59.3 - 09:59.4] I know.
[09:59.4 - 10:02.4] It literally was like you don't even own a spreadsheet, to be honest.
[10:02.4 - 10:04.0] There's like three line items in it.
[10:04.0 - 10:08.7] And, like, if this number doesn't look right, you just pick up the phone, and you tell someone else to deal with it.
[10:08.7 - 10:11.2] And I am a very, like...
[10:11.2 - 10:12.0] I'm hands-on.
[10:12.0 - 10:13.5] I like to roll up my sleeves.
[10:13.5 - 10:15.2] I like to do a little bit of everything.
[10:15.2 - 10:16.5] I love to talk to people.
[10:16.5 - 10:17.8] I love to look at the numbers.
[10:17.8 - 10:19.2] I love to put deals together.
[10:19.2 - 10:20.5] I love to be out and about.
[10:20.5 - 10:28.7] And I was just like, I could picture myself, like, slowly losing my mind sitting in that cubicle looking at those three spreadsheets all day.
[10:28.7 - 10:30.2] Um, and then there were- That's great ...
[10:30.2 - 10:32.1] some other jobs that were very similar.
[10:32.1 - 10:42.7] So I very quickly realized that I think the education at Babson might have been too good because we're exposed to so many leaders and so many entrepreneurs.
[10:42.7 - 10:44.0] Like, one of my professors w-
[10:44.2 - 10:47.0] the owner, not the owner, the guy that started Jiffy Lube.
[10:47.0 - 10:50.2] Another professor was the guy that started Dunkin' Donuts.
[10:50.2 - 10:56.6] So you're being exposed to these amazing entrepreneurs that have done such incredible things and have built companies.
[10:56.6 - 11:02.5] And then you graduate there, and they want you to, like, own three fields in an ex- spre- in an Excel spreadsheet.
[11:02.5 - 11:04.9] And I was just like, "No, that's not what I wanna do.
[11:04.9 - 11:06.3] Like, I'm so fired up.
[11:06.3 - 11:07.7] I, I wanna be in business.
[11:07.7 - 11:10.0] I wanna, like, put deals together.
[11:10.0 - 11:11.3] I wanna negotiate.
[11:11.3 - 11:21.4] I wanna, like, analyze numbers." So somehow, I don't even know how this happened, but I came across a business brokerage opportunity out of state somewhere,
[11:21.4 - 11:24.1] and I ended up thinking, "You know what?
[11:24.1 - 11:27.9] That seems like a really fun job because you'd be able to do a lot of things.
[11:27.9 - 11:33.8] You work with a lot of different, um, entrepreneurs that span, like, a whole gamut of different industries.
[11:33.8 - 11:35.0] You get to do the marketing.
[11:35.0 - 11:37.1] You get to, uh, you get to look at their numbers.
[11:37.1 - 11:39.6] You get to negotiate and find buyers.
[11:39.6 - 11:48.5] You get to put the deal together." So I ended up reaching out to a few business brokerage companies in Massachusetts, and I asked them for just an informational meeting.
[11:48.5 - 11:50.9] I said, "Hey, I'd love to take you out to lunch.
[11:50.9 - 11:51.8] I love what you do.
[11:51.8 - 12:01.0] Seems like a really interesting industry." So I came across, um, George & Company, and the owner was Chris George, and I called him up and I said, "Hey, Chris.
[12:01.0 - 12:06.4] Can I take you out to lunch?" And he was like, "Well, hey, you're, you know, you're a cute 22-year-old girl.
[12:06.4 - 12:08.2] Sure, let's go." I mean, no, he was awesome.
[12:08.2 - 12:11.0] But he was like, he was very, very sweet.
[12:11.0 - 12:12.4] And he was like, "Yes, of course.
[12:12.4 - 12:14.7] Let's go out to lunch." So we went to lunch.
[12:14.7 - 12:16.1] We had a really long lunch.
[12:16.1 - 12:26.2] And at the end of the lunch he goes, "Do you wanna come work for my company?" And I was like, "Are you serious?" He's like, he's like, "You know, I guess so." He's like, "I've never had anyone
[12:26.2 - 12:34.2] so young work for my company." I was the first female he's ever hired because business brokerage is traditionally a very, like, male-dominated- Sure ...
[12:34.2 - 12:44.3] older industry, and most of the people that work in business brokerage have owned their own companies and are kind of at the end of their careers and are doing business brokerage as, like,
[12:44.3 - 12:50.1] a, a little, um, transition between full-time work and, and retirement.
[12:50.1 - 12:52.6] So I started working at George & Company.
[12:52.6 - 12:57.3] In the first six months, I spent literally just shadowing Chris, my boss.
[12:57.3 - 12:59.8] Um, I would sit in on all his meetings with him.
[12:59.8 - 13:03.9] I would go out, look at companies that were, you know, thinking about selling.
[13:03.9 - 13:06.4] I would listen to him negotiate deals.
[13:06.4 - 13:11.3] I w- I watched him put together all the financials in preparation for listing a company.
[13:11.3 - 13:21.6] And after that first six months, he started giving me, like, increasing responsibility, and I ended up working there for, for quite a while, and I've sold everything from,
[13:21.6 - 13:31.6] um, small pet walking, to medical billing, to large manufacturing companies, to daycare centers, to, um, retail stores.
[13:31.6 - 13:35.4] Like, you name it, I've sold it, and it was an amazing experience.
[13:35.4 - 13:39.0] So way more hands-on than three fields in a spreadsheet.
[13:39.0 - 13:40.5] Oh my God, yeah.
[13:40.5 - 13:42.6] It was like, it was like trial by fire.
[13:42.6 - 13:45.0] I mean, I literally had to be an expert- Yeah, the opposite ...
[13:45.0 - 13:55.4] in, like, the plastics manufacturing industry at the same time as being an expert on how medical billing works, the same time as running an upscale, a women's
[13:55.4 - 13:58.0] accessories and clothing retail store.
[13:58.0 - 14:00.8] Like, you have to understand all these businesses.
[14:00.8 - 14:02.4] You have to understand their business model.
[14:02.4 - 14:02.5] Yeah.
[14:02.5 - 14:03.5] You have to know their numbers.
[14:03.5 - 14:05.8] You have to understand their, their target market.
[14:05.8 - 14:07.8] You have to understand, who would be a good buyer?
[14:07.8 - 14:14.0] You have to know how to put together the financials and package it such that it's appealing to buyers.
[14:14.0 - 14:21.0] So there were so many, like, different hats that I had to wear, and it was exactly the type of job I wanted to do.
[14:21.0 - 14:27.7] It was perfect 'cause I got to, like, roll up my sleeves and be involved in so many different aspects and facets of every business.
[14:27.7 - 14:37.7] So I think that was a great, um, gateway into real estate investing 'cause it was also, like, a lot of moving pieces, a lot of financials, a lot of negotiation, a lot of
[14:37.7 - 14:38.5] communication.
[14:38.5 - 14:40.5] Super, super fun job.
[14:40.5 - 14:49.1] Um, unfortunately, Chris George ended up retiring, and at the same time, I got my MBA and I realized, you know what?
[14:49.1 - 14:57.3] This is probably my opportunity to finally get into real estate investing, which was always, like, the career I thought I'd end up in at some point.
[14:57.3 - 15:00.0] But I loved my time at George & Company.
[15:00.0 - 15:01.9] I think it was an amazing experience.
[15:01.9 - 15:03.3] Gotcha.
[15:03.3 - 15:08.7] So what made you pick the asset class of real estate that you went into at first?
[15:08.7 - 15:11.4] I mean, what was the first asset class you went into?
[15:11.4 - 15:15.2] So the first asset class I went into was small.
[15:15.2 - 15:17.3] I, I started out with...
[15:17.3 - 15:19.2] or, actually, I didn't even start out there.
[15:19.2 - 15:29.6] I thought I would do single-family homes, but then I realized very quickly how much work it is to get one deal done and, and, and how many moving pieces there are
[15:29.6 - 15:32.0] just for one property or for- Right ...
[15:32.0 - 15:33.2] for one rental amount.
[15:33.2 - 15:41.6] So I ended up, um, getting into small multifamily in Springfield, Massachusetts, well, and the surrounding area.
[15:41.6 - 15:46.6] So I had some in, like, Chicopee, um, Ludlow- Can I interrupt you just for a second?
[15:46.6 - 15:46.7] Sorry?
[15:46.7 - 15:47.0] I gotta interrupt you just for a second.
[15:47.0 - 15:49.5] How, how do you define small, for our listeners?
[15:49.5 - 15:52.5] Um, so it was two to four-unit properties.
[15:52.5 - 15:53.6] Everything- Gotcha ...
[15:53.6 - 16:01.0] I started with, like the first two years of investing, I started with one duplex that was a HUD-owned property.
[16:01.0 - 16:06.0] Um, I came across a property manager in Springfield who owned his own four-
[16:06.2 - 16:06.6] folio.
[16:06.6 - 16:10.9] His wife was a real estate agent, and they also ran a property management company.
[16:10.9 - 16:14.6] So they were kind of a one-stop shop, and he was a really good guy.
[16:14.6 - 16:15.7] I trusted him.
[16:15.7 - 16:20.6] Um, I knew he knew what he was doing because he owned about 100 doors in the market.
[16:20.6 - 16:21.7] So he- Yeah ...
[16:21.7 - 16:31.8] the first day I met him, he took me around Springfield, and we spent two hours driving around, and he was showing me all the neighborhoods and all his properties
[16:31.8 - 16:40.3] and kind of gave me a little quick summary of what he did to each property and how he made money and how, you know, what was successful, what wasn't.
[16:40.3 - 16:50.5] And his wife, who was the agent, came across a two-unit property that was HUD-owned, and it was a really...
[16:50.5 - 16:56.1] It was in a really solid market, but because it was a HUD-owned property, the price made a lot of sense.
[16:56.1 - 16:59.3] So that was the first investment property that I purchased.
[16:59.3 - 17:09.3] Then I went in, um, bought the property, did renovations, and then refinanced out of it, got all of my money back and a little bit extra, and then had
[17:09.3 - 17:11.9] this cash flowing property that was two units.
[17:11.9 - 17:15.6] So it was sort of my proof of concept.
[17:15.6 - 17:16.2] Sure.
[17:16.2 - 17:17.0] It works.
[17:17.0 - 17:18.3] I love doing it.
[17:18.3 - 17:25.2] In my mind right away, I was thinking, "Okay, that was good, and I'm glad it wasn't a single family.
[17:25.2 - 17:29.8] I'm glad I did that for two units because, you know, I kinda killed two birds with one stone.
[17:29.8 - 17:39.8] But hey, wouldn't it be great to do that with a four-unit or a 10-unit or a 20-unit?" Because the amount of work is not proportional to the
[17:39.8 - 17:40.7] number of units.
[17:40.7 - 17:41.2] Right.
[17:41.2 - 17:44.0] So I did, I did that on the duplex.
[17:44.0 - 17:45.9] Um, then I bought a triplex.
[17:45.9 - 17:47.3] Then I got another duplex.
[17:47.3 - 17:56.4] So anyway, over the next, like, year and a half, I ended up with about six properties in Springfield that were all two to four-unit properties.
[17:56.4 - 17:58.9] And I had a pretty good rhythm going.
[17:58.9 - 18:00.6] I had a great property manager.
[18:00.6 - 18:02.6] He introduced me to contractors.
[18:02.6 - 18:12.9] So we were, we were doing pretty well, um, and then COVID happened, and we very quickly went from doing very well to not doing so well because
[18:12.9 - 18:14.1] all...
[18:14.1 - 18:19.1] I had just closed on a four-unit property that was a very heavy value add.
[18:19.1 - 18:26.4] It was, um, essentially down to the studs, and it needed new everything, like plumbing, electric, windows, roof, everything.
[18:26.4 - 18:29.2] And I closed on it, and I...
[18:29.2 - 18:31.3] we had all these items on order.
[18:31.3 - 18:33.6] Everything was running on schedule.
[18:33.6 - 18:35.9] We were supposed to be out of the deal with...
[18:35.9 - 18:36.5] Well, not out.
[18:36.5 - 18:38.6] I was either considering keeping it.
[18:38.6 - 18:48.6] I was, I was thinking, "If I can make a good amount of profit on it, I'll try to flip it into a, like, an eight or 10-unit property next, or I'll keep
[18:48.6 - 18:58.0] it and just cashflow it." So I wasn't quite sure what my exit strategy was, but I knew that I had to be in it, like, done with the renovation within, we had budgeted four to six months.
[18:58.0 - 18:58.6] Yeah.
[18:58.6 - 19:07.2] And two months into my purchase, I think, or maybe two and a half or three, COVID happened, and obviously, like, everything slowed down.
[19:07.2 - 19:13.7] Um, my window order went from being delivered in the next four weeks to now being, like, three months out.
[19:13.7 - 19:15.5] Now it was four months out.
[19:15.5 - 19:18.0] Then there was just no material, and they didn't- Yeah ...
[19:18.0 - 19:18.9] know how many months out.
[19:18.9 - 19:21.0] Um, same thing out of my crew.
[19:21.0 - 19:23.9] I had, like, six contractors working at the property.
[19:23.9 - 19:26.5] Only two of them continued to show up.
[19:26.5 - 19:29.6] Four guys, like, a few of them were afraid of getting sick.
[19:29.6 - 19:35.9] Two guys were getting some kind of government benefits, so they're like, "Well, I don't need to work right now." "I'm just gonna Yeah.
[19:35.9 - 19:46.0] So I went from having, like, a skeleton crew, no materials, and I told the two guys that were there, I was like, "Can you please work on whatever you can work on just so we
[19:46.0 - 19:56.4] have some progress?" And they would call me and say, "Well, I can work on this, but I need these plumbing components to be able to do it." So I was getting in my car
[19:56.4 - 20:01.7] and driving around to every Lowe's and Home Depot store within, like, a 20 mile or 50...
[20:01.7 - 20:04.0] Actually, it was 50 miles 'cause they were out in Springfield.
[20:04.0 - 20:14.1] So I would start here and then get closer and closer to them in an effort to try to save their time so they don't have to be out looking for these, like, materials that were
[20:14.1 - 20:15.9] no longer available during COVID.
[20:15.9 - 20:22.7] And I would spend hours and days, like, out on the road, and my kids were now home because school's canceled.
[20:22.7 - 20:26.2] So some days I've got my kids in the back of my car.
[20:26.2 - 20:29.3] We're driving around to all these home improvement stores.
[20:29.3 - 20:32.5] We can't find any of the materials that are necessary.
[20:32.5 - 20:38.5] If we do finally find something, I'm driving another hour just to drop it off in Springfield.
[20:38.5 - 20:47.0] And then I had this epiphany, like, "This is not what I started out." Like, this is not how I envisioned my real estate investing career going.
[20:47.0 - 20:57.0] Like, I don't wanna be, like, schlepping my three kids around to every home improvement store looking for a little, like, plumbing gadget or widget or whatever it was
[20:57.0 - 20:57.8] called.
[20:57.8 - 21:06.3] Um, so at that point, I thought, "Okay, we gotta get through this COVID." You know, COVID was obviously, like, a black swan wild card event.
[21:06.3 - 21:07.4] No one expected it.
[21:07.4 - 21:07.9] Yeah.
[21:07.9 - 21:17.9] And I kinda had to weather the storm, deal with these renovations I had currently going on, try to get out of them at least break even,
[21:17.9 - 21:18.6] breaking even.
[21:18.6 - 21:20.5] I was like, "Okay, forget making money.
[21:20.5 - 21:23.2] Let me just get my money back and get out of these." Yeah.
[21:23.2 - 21:25.3] But at that point, I realized, you know what?
[21:25.3 - 21:28.1] I really wanna get into the bigger properties where-
[21:28.2 - 21:34.7] I can afford to hire more people, where we can have a property manager and I don't have to be physically doing all this myself.
[21:34.7 - 21:35.5] So let me ask- So that's- ...
[21:35.5 - 21:37.3] what size properties are you in now?
[21:37.3 - 21:38.8] What, so how many doors- Um, right- ...
[21:38.8 - 21:39.4] are you looking at?
[21:39.4 - 21:39.9] Yeah.
[21:39.9 - 21:45.7] So right now I have everything from a 12-unit property up to 42 units.
[21:45.7 - 21:46.7] Multi-family.
[21:46.7 - 21:47.6] So what is your sweet- Wow ...
[21:47.6 - 21:48.4] spot, do you think?
[21:48.4 - 21:56.0] Um, right now we will not buy anything under 30 units.
[21:56.0 - 21:57.2] Just- Okay.
[21:57.2 - 21:59.3] Why- Again, because our- Why have you come to that?
[21:59.3 - 22:03.7] Our portfolio is out of state, and out of state- Okay ...
[22:03.7 - 22:06.3] is a whole separate conversation.
[22:06.3 - 22:08.4] It takes a lot more asset management.
[22:08.4 - 22:13.2] You have to be in, like, really, really close communication with your property managers.
[22:13.2 - 22:21.8] The properties I look at are all not necessarily heavy value add, but heavier value, but somewhat value add.
[22:21.8 - 22:28.8] Doesn't necessarily have to be down to the studs, but at least cosmetic work, you know, flooring, kitchens, bathrooms, all that stuff.
[22:28.8 - 22:38.9] So because we're looking for properties that require work, we have to be much more hands-on, especially in the beginning, like the first 12 to
[22:38.9 - 22:42.6] 18 months as we're renovating and stabilizing the property.
[22:42.6 - 22:52.7] So for me, in order f- like, in order for me to invest my time and energy, I've found that I really want it to be at least 30 units under one roof.
[22:52.7 - 22:55.2] Otherwise, it's just too complicated.
[22:55.2 - 22:57.6] You got too many properties to manage.
[22:57.6 - 22:59.5] You've got too many property managers.
[22:59.5 - 23:00.5] You're too scattered.
[23:00.5 - 23:01.5] It's just, it, it's...
[23:01.5 - 23:08.7] There's a lot, um, that, that is involved in owning multi-family and managing larger renovations.
[23:08.7 - 23:14.1] So the more units you have under one roof, kind of the, the more economies of scale you get.
[23:14.1 - 23:15.7] Sure.
[23:15.7 - 23:20.3] And when you say we, do you generally go in as GPs, LPs?
[23:20.3 - 23:21.4] How are you setting it up?
[23:21.4 - 23:24.6] Um, so everything is with...
[23:24.6 - 23:28.1] I've obviously invested on my own.
[23:28.1 - 23:30.7] Recently, I've had a partner in my deals.
[23:30.7 - 23:33.6] We do not do any kind of syndications.
[23:33.6 - 23:37.4] Once in a while, we will bring in an investor into our deal.
[23:37.4 - 23:40.5] So sometimes we'll do, like, a debt investor.
[23:40.5 - 23:48.7] A few deals we've, um, had, like, equity investors in the deals, but they all own a small piece of the equity.
[23:48.7 - 23:54.0] And my role is for me to get into any property, I have to, I have to be in charge.
[23:54.0 - 23:55.7] I have to have the controlling share.
[23:55.7 - 23:59.0] And it's not because, it's not because I'm greedy.
[23:59.0 - 24:02.3] It's just because I know how much work it is.
[24:02.3 - 24:06.5] And first of all, I want to be compensated for my time and my effort.
[24:06.5 - 24:16.6] And second of all, I know how many challenges come up, and I want to be the one that gets to make the decisions because I know I'm able to navigate, like, pretty
[24:16.6 - 24:26.6] quickly and, and sort of if, if problems come up, once we face obstacles, I want to know that I can make a change really quickly, and
[24:26.6 - 24:31.2] I can do what needs to be done in order to continue smooth sailing down the road.
[24:31.2 - 24:41.6] So I don't want to be dependent on someone else precluding me from making those decisions or taking too long to, to change strategy or pivot, which
[24:41.6 - 24:49.2] unfortunately we've had to do quite a bit because the market has gone through a lot of changes in the last few years.
[24:49.2 - 24:53.8] How do you decide what market you're going to look at for a property?
[24:53.8 - 24:56.7] I know some people like to stay in the Southeast.
[24:56.7 - 24:58.3] And I know this is gonna offend some people.
[24:58.3 - 24:59.5] Some people prefer to stay- ...
[24:59.5 - 25:03.7] in red states because they tend to be more, um, landlord friendly.
[25:03.7 - 25:05.0] So what areas- Yeah ...
[25:05.0 - 25:05.9] do you focus on?
[25:05.9 - 25:06.7] What states?
[25:06.7 - 25:09.7] So, so landlord friendly is key.
[25:09.7 - 25:18.2] That is something that's very important to us, like how quickly we can get a non-paying tenant out of the unit is, is important.
[25:18.2 - 25:18.7] Um- Yeah ...
[25:18.7 - 25:22.4] the second thing is we look at properties.
[25:22.4 - 25:26.5] We don't necessar- So right now, just, sorry.
[25:26.5 - 25:29.2] To answer your question, we mostly focus on Kentucky.
[25:29.2 - 25:29.6] Sorry.
[25:29.6 - 25:34.5] Kentucky is somewhat, and Ohio is, like, our dominant state.
[25:34.5 - 25:43.0] What we have found is the, once we started focusing on one state, we start having more of a network there.
[25:43.0 - 25:45.1] Once you have more of a network- Sure ...
[25:45.1 - 25:47.5] there, you start having deals come to you.
[25:47.5 - 25:48.2] Once you start- Sure ...
[25:48.2 - 25:53.3] doing deals there, you're, you know, you start getting more and more contacts in your Rolodex.
[25:53.3 - 26:00.9] So it is now easier for us to own and operate property in Ohio because we have a network built out there.
[26:00.9 - 26:02.4] We have people we trust.
[26:02.4 - 26:04.4] We have property managers, vendors.
[26:04.4 - 26:06.6] We have, you know, roofing guys.
[26:06.6 - 26:07.5] We have plumbers.
[26:07.5 - 26:12.3] Like, we, we know that we have everyone we need in that area.
[26:12.3 - 26:14.8] We do also- So is- Sorry.
[26:14.8 - 26:15.2] I'm sorry.
[26:15.2 - 26:19.2] So is there a geographic part of Ohio that you focus on?
[26:19.2 - 26:21.8] Are you Cincinnati, Dayton, Columbus, or...?
[26:21.8 - 26:25.8] Um, so we are in and around Cleveland mostly.
[26:25.8 - 26:27.5] We do also- Okay ...
[26:27.5 - 26:30.2] do some investing around Cincinnati.
[26:30.2 - 26:35.6] And those were not necessarily strategic, like, selections.
[26:35.6 - 26:40.1] Those were just the areas that we ended up finding good opportunities in.
[26:40.1 - 26:45.6] And once we got a stronghold there, it, it sort of grew like a snowball, 'cause now we've got more...
[26:45.6 - 26:49.9] You know, we've got brokers reaching out to us 'cause they know we're active investors there.
[26:50.3 - 26:54.8] We've got people calling us saying, "Hey, I know you renovated this property down the street.
[26:54.8 - 26:56.1] I'm thinking of selling mine.
[26:56.1 - 27:04.6] Are you interested in purchasing it?" So, so we've kind of grown our network in those areas and, and therefore we're sort of sticking with them.
[27:04.6 - 27:12.6] But the reason we picked Ohio is because it is a landlord-friendly state and because the numbers made sense there.
[27:12.6 - 27:16.2] We were buying, um, heavy value add properties.
[27:16.2 - 27:26.5] And once we got into the property and we spent a lot of money on renovations, we were able to still cashflow given the ratio of purchase price to rents
[27:26.5 - 27:27.3] that we're getting.
[27:27.3 - 27:28.5] So that was...
[27:28.5 - 27:33.3] Like, I'd love to be in Massachusetts because then I can drive to all my assets and I can...
[27:33.3 - 27:36.4] You know, if something's going wrong, I'm able to be there within an hour.
[27:36.4 - 27:37.2] I would love that.
[27:37.2 - 27:47.8] But unfortunately, the numbers just don't make nearly as much sense in Massachusetts 'cause I'm, I'm gonna be spending, you know, 3 or $400,000 a door to get 2,500
[27:47.8 - 27:48.3] in rent.
[27:48.3 - 27:49.8] Versus- Yeah ...
[27:49.8 - 27:54.0] Ohio, where I can still buy a property where I'm, like, I'm buying it at 80 a door.
[27:54.0 - 27:59.9] I invest another 15 to 20 to do the renovation, and now my rent is 1,500 a month.
[27:59.9 - 28:04.9] So the numbers just make a lot more sense, and you're able to cashflow there.
[28:04.9 - 28:07.5] That's one of the reasons we got into Ohio.
[28:07.5 - 28:09.6] Kentucky is a very similar story.
[28:09.6 - 28:19.8] Um, so we would be willing to purchase in other states where the numbers make as much sense and it's more
[28:19.8 - 28:21.9] of a landlord-friendly state.
[28:21.9 - 28:25.2] And of course, all the underlying factors have to make sense.
[28:25.2 - 28:28.5] Like, the population has to be at least stable or growing.
[28:28.5 - 28:28.7] Up, up.
[28:28.7 - 28:31.5] There has to be good diversity of employment.
[28:31.5 - 28:33.1] We have to have decent schools.
[28:33.1 - 28:37.8] Like, our strategy has been purchasing, um, larger properties.
[28:37.8 - 28:39.9] We don't love studios or one bedrooms.
[28:39.9 - 28:49.9] We prefer to buy, like, two or three-bedroom properties 'cause we find that if you're catering to families, then you're able to have, um,
[28:49.9 - 28:54.4] the tenants stay in a unit much longer 'cause now they care about the school system.
[28:54.4 - 28:55.9] Now they've put down roots.
[28:55.9 - 28:59.5] They've got, you know, they've got multiple people living in one unit.
[28:59.5 - 29:02.2] So they're not going to be turning over as quickly.
[29:02.2 - 29:09.0] Versus, like, studio and one bedrooms where t- tends to be more of a transient population there.
[29:09.0 - 29:10.6] Oh, that makes a lot of sense.
[29:10.6 - 29:13.1] Oh, I don't know if Mike's having issues with his computer.
[29:13.1 - 29:13.4] Yeah, I know.
[29:13.4 - 29:15.2] I noticed he dropped out.
[29:15.2 - 29:15.5] Dropped out.
[29:15.5 - 29:16.1] I'm not sure.
[29:16.1 - 29:22.2] So yeah, so you're, you're focusing now on, like, what have you learned about out-of-state management?
[29:22.2 - 29:27.4] Like, 'cause I know that was one thing we talked about that that was a challenge that you guys had in managing them out of state.
[29:27.4 - 29:28.8] Yeah.
[29:28.8 - 29:34.6] One of the things that I've learned is no one's gonna take as good care of your property as you are.
[29:34.6 - 29:35.0] That's true.
[29:35.0 - 29:35.1] Yeah.
[29:35.1 - 29:37.2] So even if you're out of state, right?
[29:37.2 - 29:47.2] Even if you're out of state and you're using a property management company, and we have some great, like, rockstar property management companies, but they're in the business of
[29:47.2 - 29:49.8] managing multiple properties for owners, right?
[29:49.8 - 29:51.5] You're not their only client.
[29:51.5 - 29:54.6] They have, you know, 1,000, 2,000 doors they're managing.
[29:54.6 - 29:56.8] So there's a lot that's on their plate.
[29:56.8 - 30:07.0] So I have found I have to take a ton of ownership in activities that maybe are traditionally perceived
[30:07.0 - 30:09.3] as the property manager will handle it.
[30:09.3 - 30:12.8] Or w- why, like, I've had people ask me, "Why are you doing this?
[30:12.8 - 30:15.2] Why are you putting ads for rental units?
[30:15.2 - 30:16.5] Don't you have a property manager?
[30:16.5 - 30:19.7] Why are you getting quotes for the driveway repair?
[30:19.7 - 30:23.7] Isn't that what a property manager is for?" And my answer is yes, of course.
[30:23.7 - 30:33.9] But I work with them as a team, and I find that if I am able to help them, that frees up more of their time to do the things I can't
[30:33.9 - 30:37.1] do, like physically be on site showing the units, right?
[30:37.1 - 30:47.2] So I, I look at everything as a partnership with our property managers, and I try to take as much off their plate as possible and do whatever I can
[30:47.2 - 30:55.6] do from home and really have more of, like, a team approach versus a you're the property manager and I'm gonna wait for my check at the end of the month.
[30:55.6 - 30:56.7] So, and I- Yeah ...
[30:56.7 - 31:06.8] have found that to be absolutely critical because, for example, we had a property manager that was getting us a quote on a repair in a unit, and their
[31:06.8 - 31:08.5] quote was $12,000.
[31:08.5 - 31:13.0] And I said, "Well, can you get more quotes?" And she's like, "I'm gonna work on it, but I've been so busy.
[31:13.0 - 31:23.1] I've got so many things on my, you know, on my, um, plate right now." So I reached out to a few other contractors, and I ended up finding one that was gonna do the exact same scope of
[31:23.1 - 31:25.1] work for $7,000.
[31:25.1 - 31:31.0] So I just saved $5,000 by spending 20 minutes and making some calls.
[31:31.0 - 31:36.1] And of course, I could have gotten upset with my property manager and said, "Well, this was your job.
[31:36.1 - 31:40.1] You should have found the best quote." But again, you have to be reasonable, right?
[31:40.1 - 31:40.7] They have- Right ...
[31:40.7 - 31:42.2] 200 units they're managing.
[31:42.2 - 31:43.5] They're trying to lease up units.
[31:43.5 - 31:45.8] They're getting calls from angry tenants all day.
[31:45.8 - 31:48.9] They're dealing with noise complaints and all sorts of other things.
[31:48.9 - 31:53.8] So whatever I can take off their plate and do from home, I'm happy to do it.
[31:53.8 - 32:01.0] And I think it gives the property managers an understanding that I'm a very hands-on and invested owner.
[32:01.0 - 32:04.3] So they approach my property a little bit differently too.
[32:04.3 - 32:09.8] They now are, you know, they're probably gonna prioritize my property 'cause they know how hands-on I am.
[32:09.8 - 32:11.1] They know that I'm gonna ask- Yeah ...
[32:11.1 - 32:11.9] them questions.
[32:11.9 - 32:12.2] They-
[32:12.3 - 32:14.0] So I'm kind of overseeing everything.
[32:14.0 - 32:21.4] There is a very fine balance because you don't wanna be stepping on their toes, but I present everything as, you know, "We're a team.
[32:21.4 - 32:22.2] What can I do?
[32:22.2 - 32:22.9] How can I help?
[32:22.9 - 32:31.8] Let me take that off your plate." And it's worked out really well for us, as long as everyone is on the same page and you set all the expectations in the beginning.
[32:31.8 - 32:33.0] Yeah.
[32:33.0 - 32:34.2] So- I think that makes a lot of sense.
[32:34.2 - 32:36.0] Like, let's just zoom out a little bit.
[32:36.0 - 32:36.7] Like, I know- Yeah ...
[32:36.7 - 32:38.0] you're married, your husband works, right?
[32:38.0 - 32:43.6] Like, what is your goal with all of the real estate investing that you've been doing?
[32:43.6 - 32:44.6] Like, 20- Um- ...
[32:44.6 - 32:45.7] 20 years from now.
[32:45.7 - 32:47.6] Um- Like, why are you doing this?
[32:47.6 - 32:52.4] So I mean, the, the, the short term answer is I really enjoy it.
[32:52.4 - 32:53.8] Like I said, I've always loved- Okay ...
[32:53.8 - 32:54.4] real estate.
[32:54.4 - 33:03.6] Um, I enjoy all of the, um, day-to-day responsibilities that I get to manage, and a lot of the stuff I manage is not glamorous.
[33:03.6 - 33:09.1] Like, there, like, there are a ton of emails in my inbox that are not pleasant.
[33:09.1 - 33:11.3] Like, "Oh, this unit has fleas- Oh, sure ...
[33:11.3 - 33:13.4] and this tenant is angry." Um, right?
[33:13.4 - 33:14.2] There's a lot.
[33:14.2 - 33:14.5] Yeah.
[33:14.5 - 33:18.8] But overall, I love being able to own property.
[33:18.8 - 33:25.9] I love being able to improve properties and make a safer, comfortable home for people that they wanna come home to.
[33:25.9 - 33:30.7] I love the fact that I manage and control my own money.
[33:30.7 - 33:33.5] Like, can I take my money and put it in the stock market?
[33:33.5 - 33:35.9] Possibly, but I don't control Apple.
[33:35.9 - 33:36.9] I don't control- Right.
[33:36.9 - 33:36.9] You don't ...
[33:36.9 - 33:36.9] Google.
[33:36.9 - 33:38.6] I'm gonna be at their mercy, right?
[33:38.6 - 33:43.4] So I love the fact that here I am directly responsible for my money.
[33:43.4 - 33:53.5] And like I said, the reason I only invest where I have, like, the majority control of the property or, like, my partner and I have majority control of the property is because we wanna be able
[33:53.5 - 33:54.1] to pivot.
[33:54.1 - 33:57.6] We wanna be able to make changes quickly if the market is changing.
[33:57.6 - 34:01.7] Like as an example, we used to buy heavy value add properties.
[34:01.7 - 34:03.2] That used to be our bread and butter.
[34:03.2 - 34:04.3] But guess what?
[34:04.3 - 34:08.0] Materials have skyrocketed, labor costs have skyrocketed.
[34:08.0 - 34:18.2] Everything is getting more expensive, so those heavy value add deals are no longer making as, like as much sense and as much money because we end up spending so much on the renovations.
[34:18.2 - 34:20.5] So we've decided we're gonna pivot.
[34:20.5 - 34:23.4] Now our target is a little bit different.
[34:23.4 - 34:33.4] That's a decision we were able to make very quickly based on all the information available to us, and we're able to implement it and execute on it right away.
[34:33.4 - 34:37.0] If you, you know, if you've got your money in the stock market, that's not gonna be the case.
[34:37.0 - 34:37.9] You don't control it.
[34:37.9 - 34:38.6] No, you can't.
[34:38.6 - 34:38.6] So I love having the control.
[34:38.6 - 34:39.9] You don't control anything.
[34:39.9 - 34:40.4] Right?
[34:40.4 - 34:40.9] I love- Yeah ...
[34:40.9 - 34:41.8] having the control.
[34:41.8 - 34:50.1] I love, I love being responsible, and I'm a very no-nonsense person, so if something doesn't go right, I'm just like, "Well, hey, I'm the owner.
[34:50.1 - 34:51.6] Like, I, I messed up.
[34:51.6 - 34:52.7] I take ownership.
[34:52.7 - 34:53.7] How do I learn from it?
[34:53.7 - 34:54.6] How do I pivot?
[34:54.6 - 34:59.6] What do I do differently to, to get out of this, you know, bad situation?" Yeah.
[34:59.6 - 35:00.5] To get out of it, yeah.
[35:00.5 - 35:10.6] So, so I, I think that the goal is, um, short term I'm enjoying it, and it really, like, it keeps me on my toes and
[35:10.6 - 35:13.2] I love being able to find deals, underwrite deals.
[35:13.2 - 35:14.5] I love to negotiate.
[35:14.5 - 35:20.5] I, I love the communications piece with, like, property managers and kinda keeping it all together and all afloat.
[35:20.5 - 35:30.5] Long term, I would love to get to a point where I have substantial income coming in every month and I can make a
[35:30.5 - 35:33.4] decision on do I wanna work this month or not?
[35:33.4 - 35:35.5] Do I wanna look for another deal or not?
[35:35.5 - 35:38.7] Do I wanna spend the summer in Paris or not?
[35:38.7 - 35:42.1] Um, so that's kind of my longer term goal.
[35:42.1 - 35:45.7] My shorter term goal is I love doing this.
[35:45.7 - 35:54.5] I, I obviously want the passive income, but I also love the fact that even though I work a lot, I still get to set my schedule.
[35:54.5 - 35:55.5] So like- Yes, yes ...
[35:55.5 - 36:00.9] typically when my son gets home at 2:40, I'm always downstairs greeting him and chatting with him about his day.
[36:00.9 - 36:05.5] And when my kids have activities, I'm able to drive them and, and I'm available to them.
[36:05.5 - 36:08.6] So I work a lot, but I kinda do it on my terms.
[36:08.6 - 36:09.9] Do you...
[36:09.9 - 36:11.9] 'Cause I know you do some flips.
[36:11.9 - 36:12.4] Mm-hmm.
[36:12.4 - 36:13.2] I would maybe...
[36:13.2 - 36:16.2] Is it fair to say more or less, like, for fun?
[36:16.2 - 36:18.1] Um, yes, it is fair- Yeah ...
[36:18.1 - 36:20.2] to say that, 'cause I love the design.
[36:20.2 - 36:22.9] Um, I go in, as you know- Yeah ...
[36:22.9 - 36:29.8] um, I go in and I find properties that typically need a lot of cosmetic work and I, and I really like changing the layout.
[36:29.8 - 36:31.2] I love picking the tile.
[36:31.2 - 36:33.6] I love making the house beautiful again.
[36:33.6 - 36:41.3] Um, so it is, it is kinda like my creative outlet, but it is also nice because it gives me a nice boost of- Yes ...
[36:41.3 - 36:41.6] cash.
[36:41.6 - 36:42.5] For sure.
[36:42.5 - 36:52.5] And because all the multifamily properties I typically purchase are value add, there's quite a long time where we don't make anything on the property.
[36:52.5 - 36:52.9] Yeah.
[36:52.9 - 36:54.6] So, you know, let's not- That's what a lot of people think, right ...
[36:54.6 - 36:54.7] fool ourselves.
[36:54.7 - 36:58.8] "Oh, I'm just gonna buy this rental and it's gonna cash flow." Yeah, it might take a year or two if- Oh, yeah ...
[36:58.8 - 37:05.3] depending on how much value add you're doing and by the time you refinance it and all this stuff for it to cashflow.
[37:05.3 - 37:06.0] Oh, yeah.
[37:06.0 - 37:06.0] Yeah.
[37:06.0 - 37:12.1] And, and a lot of people don't, like, realize, like you said, all the expenses that you're gonna be incurring.
[37:12.1 - 37:12.1] Mm-hmm.
[37:12.1 - 37:14.7] And hey, if you're renovating the property, guess what?
[37:14.7 - 37:18.5] You're at 20 or 30% vacancy at any given point because- Yeah, right ...
[37:18.5 - 37:20.4] you need units to be renovating, right?
[37:20.4 - 37:23.2] And then you gotta be ordering all the materials.
[37:23.2 - 37:33.2] And you k- like, most, we get a lot of our stuff from wholesalers, and they give us a good deal but we have to pay up front, so now I gotta come up with $20,000- Yes,
[37:33.2 - 37:33.5] yes ...
[37:33.5 - 37:34.1] to buy these
[37:35.0 - 37:42.2] So, so there is a lot, um, there are a lot of moving pieces, and there's a lot in real estate investing that is not glamorous.
[37:42.2 - 37:46.4] It, like money doesn't start like falling from the sky the minute you close- No ...
[37:46.4 - 37:47.4] on your property.
[37:47.4 - 37:48.9] That's where- And people think it does.
[37:48.9 - 37:49.5] Yeah.
[37:49.5 - 37:49.5] People think it does.
[37:49.5 - 37:50.4] And it doesn't.
[37:50.4 - 37:51.3] It does not.
[37:51.3 - 37:53.9] That is just like, that is the starting point, right?
[37:53.9 - 37:54.2] Like- Yes ...
[37:54.2 - 37:56.8] congratulations, you got a property.
[37:56.8 - 37:58.7] Now the real work begins.
[37:58.7 - 37:59.1] Right.
[37:59.1 - 38:02.3] Now you have to put your business plan into action.
[38:02.3 - 38:04.1] You gotta execute on everything.
[38:04.1 - 38:06.5] It's gonna take you 18 to 24 months.
[38:06.5 - 38:11.0] Like now that we're doing bigger properties, we're looking at 18 to 24 months- Yeah ...
[38:11.0 - 38:11.9] for a timeline.
[38:11.9 - 38:20.3] And we typically don't see a dollar in cash flow 'cause there is so much work that's getting done, and everything is being reinvested- Yeah ...
[38:20.3 - 38:21.3] back into the property.
[38:21.3 - 38:23.3] And often negative cash flow too, right?
[38:23.3 - 38:23.8] You may have to- Yeah ...
[38:23.8 - 38:27.7] contribute money to put, cover the debt service and the insurance and all that.
[38:27.7 - 38:27.8] Yeah.
[38:27.8 - 38:27.8] We, we have that.
[38:27.8 - 38:32.9] So people, a lot of people scrape together the money to buy the property and then that's not all of it.
[38:32.9 - 38:34.9] No, that is by far not all of it.
[38:34.9 - 38:42.8] Like we're at a point now where we have multiple assets, so we sometimes have to take the cash flow from one property- Yep ...
[38:42.8 - 38:44.7] and like fund another renovation.
[38:44.7 - 38:50.5] And honestly, it's so frustrating 'cause I feel like, oh my God, we finally stabilized this property.
[38:50.5 - 38:54.1] We still have no money from it 'cause now we're using it to stabilize- Yeah.
[38:54.1 - 38:54.7] That's true.
[38:54.7 - 38:55.8] ...
[38:55.8 - 38:55.8] the next one.
[38:55.8 - 38:56.0] All right.
[38:56.0 - 38:56.0] Yeah.
[38:56.0 - 38:56.8] And it goes like a chain.
[38:56.8 - 38:58.7] And like my husband jokes with me sometimes.
[38:58.7 - 39:02.2] He's like, "What about all these properties you own?" Yeah.
[39:02.2 - 39:02.5] Yeah, right.
[39:02.5 - 39:03.8] Where's all the cash flow?
[39:03.8 - 39:04.0] Yeah.
[39:04.0 - 39:04.9] Um- Oh, it's coming.
[39:04.9 - 39:06.2] He teases, honey.
[39:06.2 - 39:07.1] He's like, "Come on- Yes ...
[39:07.1 - 39:09.5] you've been telling me that for 10 years." Um- ...
[39:09.5 - 39:13.3] so, so we like, we refinance a lot of our properties.
[39:13.3 - 39:18.1] So once we refinance a property, we do get a lot of our capital back.
[39:18.1 - 39:18.5] Yeah, that's true.
[39:18.5 - 39:26.3] And depending on which property it is and what the interest rate, we've done refis where we got some cash out even, so that was really nice.
[39:26.3 - 39:30.4] Um, but that is not the case on a month-to-month basis.
[39:30.4 - 39:36.7] There are months where I literally don't take a dollar out, and I'm putting everything back into the business.
[39:36.7 - 39:38.7] It's either this property or that property.
[39:38.7 - 39:47.7] And just when you've stabilized one property and you think that property's good, you'll get a call that now we need to replace the roof on that property, right?
[39:47.7 - 39:48.7] Or- Yeah, that's true.
[39:48.7 - 39:48.7] ...
[39:48.7 - 39:53.3] or there's some issue with the plumbing, and now we have like a $4,000 plumbing expense.
[39:53.3 - 39:56.8] So there are, it's not always glamorous.
[39:56.8 - 40:03.6] Um, the, the, the money can be good, but you have to be very patient.
[40:03.6 - 40:04.9] It is not- Yes, you do ...
[40:04.9 - 40:06.0] a get rich fast.
[40:06.0 - 40:10.2] It's a get rich slow scheme if I were to classify it- Yeah.
[40:10.2 - 40:10.2] ...
[40:10.2 - 40:11.1] as anything.
[40:11.1 - 40:12.3] Um, but I love it.
[40:12.3 - 40:14.2] Like, I love real estate.
[40:14.2 - 40:17.7] I love the fact that you own these like tangible buildings.
[40:17.7 - 40:19.2] I love making them beautiful.
[40:19.2 - 40:22.9] I love helping people find a safe home, right?
[40:22.9 - 40:24.3] Or a safe place to call home.
[40:24.3 - 40:24.4] Yeah.
[40:24.4 - 40:29.0] Um, and I love the fact that with real estate you get so many benefits.
[40:29.0 - 40:31.9] You, you know, it's gonna hopefully appreciate with time.
[40:31.9 - 40:33.9] You're gonna pay off your mortgage.
[40:33.9 - 40:38.1] It'll be slow and gradual, but every month you pay off a little bit of your mortgage.
[40:38.1 - 40:45.7] You're gonna have some of the depreciation expense on your tax return, and hopefully you'll be able to cash flow a little bit.
[40:45.7 - 40:46.7] Um, and you know- Yeah ...
[40:46.7 - 40:49.4] more and more as you progress in your ownership.
[40:49.4 - 40:56.7] So I think there's so, there's so much, uh, so many amazing things and so much value in owning property.
[40:56.7 - 41:06.7] But you have to be very patient, you have to be very disciplined, very deliberate, and you have to be very numbers oriented, especially in the market we're in right now, where we've
[41:06.7 - 41:08.6] had, you know, hiccups in the economy.
[41:08.6 - 41:10.6] We've got all these wars going on.
[41:10.6 - 41:11.6] We've got the whole- Yeah, right ...
[41:11.6 - 41:12.3] situation.
[41:12.3 - 41:20.9] Everything impacts real estate, so you have to be very careful, um, and, and very strategic in all the decisions you're making.
[41:20.9 - 41:22.5] Yes, you do.
[41:22.5 - 41:31.1] And I think that you summed it up, you summed it up perfectly of exactly where people think real estate is great, and it is, but it's not easy.
[41:31.1 - 41:31.7] No.
[41:31.7 - 41:41.3] And so, hey, we've been going for, um, about 40 minutes now, and thank you s- us so much for your time and for spending, you know, some of your afternoon with us, sharing your experience.
[41:41.3 - 41:46.2] It, uh, where can people get ahold of you if they want to, uh, reach out to you?
[41:46.2 - 41:55.9] Um, so my email address is marianna@m, like the letter m, powermultifamily.com.
[41:55.9 - 41:59.2] That's probably the best way to get in touch with me.
[41:59.2 - 42:00.7] I'm also on Facebook.
[42:00.7 - 42:06.4] Um, it's just Marianna, uh, and then space Osipenko, O-S-I-P-E-N-K-O.
[42:06.4 - 42:08.2] So I'm not...
[42:08.2 - 42:12.4] I, I have an Instagram page, but I am, I think I'm too old for Instagram.
[42:12.4 - 42:13.7] I'm not really- ...
[42:13.7 - 42:13.7] into it.
[42:13.7 - 42:21.4] Um, but I, I love to talk real estate, so I always love to connect with people that are in the industry or thinking about it.
[42:21.4 - 42:25.0] Like I'm, I'm happy to share additional thoughts, insights.
[42:25.0 - 42:26.7] I've learned quite a lot.
[42:26.7 - 42:36.2] I'm still learning and I'll, I think I always will be, but there's definitely a lot that, you know, that I've found out the hard way too, by being in it for so long.
[42:36.2 - 42:37.5] Awesome.
[42:37.5 - 42:39.9] Yeah, we'll put both of those links, uh, in the notes.
[42:39.9 - 42:42.5] So Marianna, thank you so much for, uh, coming on.
[42:42.5 - 42:43.5] I really appreciate it.
[42:43.5 - 42:44.8] It was a pleasure.