John Noland's daughter had nine back surgeries — and a W2 job couldn't keep up with the trips to New York, so he went full-time in real estate and never looked back. In this episode, the Marine Corps veteran turned 120-door landlord and SaaS founder breaks down how he built a lean, self-managed portfolio while flipping four properties a month, why he fired two of his three developers after AI replaced them, and the one question every entrepreneur needs to ask before chasing the next shiny object.
Episode 25: Why Paying More Can Make You More with Jon Nolen
What if the cheapest option is actually the most expensive mistake? From rental repairs to lead generation, masterminds, software, and even flights, it all keeps coming back to one idea: value matters more than price.
In this episode, Mike and Zach sit down with real estate investor Jon Nolen to dig into the hidden cost of cutting corners in real estate, business, and life. We talk about what it’s really like to manage a rental portfolio, including the benefits of using both in-house management and outside property managers. There’s a lot to learn from seeing how other people run their systems, especially when it helps improve your own.
We shift into why landlords need to take better care of their tenants. Slow repairs, cheap materials, and poor service don’t save money in the long run. They lead to vacancies, make-readies, and lost cash flow.
One of our biggest takeaways from this conversation is around leads. Cheaper leads can create more work, more rejection, and more burnout. Better leads may cost more upfront, but they can convert faster, save time, and produce stronger returns.
You’ll also hear about flipping versus holding, the value of high-level masterminds, and how a real estate CRM can bring the whole property lifecycle together.
“It’s not always best to get the lowest price. Sometimes it’s better to pay more.”
“Pay more. Get better leads, get better software, get better everything.”
“You don’t get into real estate to add more stress to your life.”
“Value your time more, because you’re spending a lot of time to save nickels.”
Jon Nolen is a United States Marine Corps veteran, software entrepreneur, and high-volume real estate investor.
Since 2012, Jon has successfully navigated hundreds of transactions and built a substantial portfolio of over 120 rental properties. Unlike many founders who have moved away from the field, Jon remains actively engaged in the Oklahoma City market, where he continues to acquire new rentals and execute high-end property flips today.
Recognizing the technical gaps that slow down growing teams, Jon founded Pete REI, a custom-built CRM and automation platform. Drawing on his background in corporate IT and software development, he built Pete as a true investor-designed operating system that leverages "edge" AI to streamline lead management and operations.
Beyond his business ventures, Jon is an active pilot, a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioner, and a dedicated father of three. He is passionate about helping the modern investor move from "hustle" to "high-performance" by solving complex systems problems with authentic, scalable technology.
Find Jon Nolen on Facebook and Instagram
For Investors & the Fund – Learn how the Fund works and book a call
For Borrowers & Deals – Get funding and support for your next investment
[00:00 - 00:04] I have people think I'm crazy 'cause I'm a m- member of three different masterminds, and that's a lot of money every year.
[00:04 - 00:05] Yeah, it is.
[00:05 - 00:08] It is a lot of money every year, but it is so worth it.
[00:08 - 00:16] I- the relationships I gain, the experience I gain, the insight that I get from hearing what other people are doing, it- it- it's a massive investment.
[00:16 - 00:25] Most people think saving money is the answer, but the truth is saving only gets you to zero.
[00:25 - 00:31] Join Mike and Zach as they flip the script from saving to earning, from zero to unlimited potential.
[00:31 - 00:35] Welcome to Save to Zero.
[00:35 - 00:37] Hey, everybody.
[00:37 - 00:42] Welcome to episode 25 of the Save to Zero podcast.
[00:42 - 00:42] We're live.
[00:42 - 00:52] Mike and I are here with John Noland, who is a real estate investor and Marine Corps veteran who now owns a portfolio of over 120 rental
[00:52 - 00:59] properties and also started a, uh, CRM lead generation company, uh, for real estate investors.
[00:59 - 01:01] John, thanks for, uh, coming on.
[01:01 - 01:03] Hey, thanks for having me, guys.
[01:03 - 01:05] I appreciate you letting me come on and chat with everybody.
[01:05 - 01:06] Yeah, this is gonna be great.
[01:06 - 01:07] Absolutely.
[01:07 - 01:08] Give us a little bit- Yeah ...
[01:08 - 01:09] of background.
[01:09 - 01:11] What, what led you to the Marines, and what led you- ...
[01:11 - 01:15] you know, out of the Marines into real estate, and let's hear it.
[01:15 - 01:17] Oh, that, that is a long story.
[01:17 - 01:21] The short version is my parents had a couple rentals when I was a kid.
[01:21 - 01:23] When I was in high school, I had to do the make ready on one.
[01:23 - 01:27] Couldn't believe my parents weren't more upset about the condition the renters left it in.
[01:27 - 01:33] Um, but they explained that, well, they'd already paid off the mortgage, so I mean, it's just kind of what comes with it.
[01:33 - 01:33] And I...
[01:33 - 01:36] That kind of planted the seed for me to get into real estate later.
[01:36 - 01:38] I joined the Corps just...
[01:38 - 01:40] I was a smart kid, but I was lazy.
[01:40 - 01:47] I wasn't challenged in school, and I got bored, and I needed structure, and I needed discipline.
[01:47 - 01:48] Um, the Marine Corps gave that to me.
[01:48 - 01:49] I was in for just shy of five years.
[01:49 - 01:59] After that, got out, had my own personal journey, ended up at a pharmacy software company, um, working with independent pharmacies on their, their back-end software.
[01:59 - 02:03] We developed it, um, did the support, all that fun stuff.
[02:03 - 02:05] And then times changed.
[02:05 - 02:11] Had a wife, had a family, and had a lot of medical issues with a couple of my kids.
[02:11 - 02:17] And we're based out of Oklahoma City, and we had to go all the way up to New York frequently for, um, follow-ups and for surgeries.
[02:17 - 02:21] One of my daughters had seven or eight, maybe nine, I don't remember anymore, back surgeries.
[02:21 - 02:22] Wow.
[02:22 - 02:25] Um, and that kind of is hard to do with a W2 job.
[02:25 - 02:26] You know, you- Yeah.
[02:26 - 02:26] Yeah ...
[02:26 - 02:28] you kind of only get so much time.
[02:28 - 02:33] So that led, one thing led to another, and I needed more time and said, "You know what?
[02:33 - 02:36] Let's try this real estate thing," and went full time and haven't looked back.
[02:36 - 02:37] It's been almost 10 years.
[02:37 - 02:39] Wow.
[02:39 - 02:40] Fantastic.
[02:40 - 02:46] So let me understand as far as, uh, your portfolio.
[02:46 - 02:48] So you got, like, 120 units now.
[02:48 - 02:48] Yeah.
[02:48 - 02:51] When you're managing them, are they self-managed?
[02:51 - 02:53] Do you have an outside property management company?
[02:53 - 02:53] How do you handle that?
[02:53 - 02:57] 'Cause I understand that is the biggest challenge when it comes to a portfolio.
[02:57 - 02:58] Great question.
[02:58 - 03:01] Um, we self-manage most of them.
[03:01 - 03:03] We have somebody on staff that manages our properties.
[03:03 - 03:05] She manages all but three.
[03:05 - 03:08] And people look at me weird when I say that.
[03:08 - 03:08] Yes.
[03:08 - 03:12] One of them is out in rural Oklahoma, out in the east side of the state.
[03:12 - 03:18] W- it just kind of ended up, we ended up having it, and that one was so far outside of our box.
[03:18 - 03:21] Managing here would've been a nightmare, so we have a manager.
[03:21 - 03:25] The other two, somebody here in Oklahoma City manages, a professional property management company.
[03:25 - 03:29] He's been with us for almost 10 years on those two properties.
[03:29 - 03:35] He does a decent job on it, and it gives me a pulse into seeing how other people run their business and how they do other things.
[03:35 - 03:39] Like, when there's a make ready, I get to see it, and I kind of like having that little viewpoint.
[03:39 - 03:43] Um, so it's been a good o- a good, um, setup for us.
[03:43 - 03:45] That's so smart.
[03:45 - 03:47] I've never heard someone doing that as, like, a test.
[03:47 - 03:50] Just have a couple- Well, that wasn't the original intent.
[03:50 - 03:50] Yeah.
[03:50 - 03:55] Originally, I was trying to decide on what property manager to use, and I hired two to manage a few properties.
[03:55 - 04:06] And the other property management company just did an atrocious job, and I pulled them and said, "I'm, I'm gonna bring these inside." And, um, then...
[04:06 - 04:14] But I just started a relationship with this other guy, and I didn't wanna be the jerk on the line that's like, "Okay, you haven't done anything wrong, but I'm pulling you after three months." And then that's kind of where it developed from there.
[04:14 - 04:16] Interesting.
[04:16 - 04:17] I think that's brilliant.
[04:17 - 04:18] Yeah.
[04:18 - 04:22] He's out there, and he's getting the pulse for what he needs to do as a property manager.
[04:22 - 04:22] Mm-hmm.
[04:22 - 04:26] And you're learning off of what it is that he's doing for your in-house.
[04:26 - 04:27] Yeah.
[04:27 - 04:28] That's brilliant.
[04:28 - 04:28] Yeah.
[04:28 - 04:29] I love it.
[04:29 - 04:29] Brilliant.
[04:29 - 04:31] Awesome.
[04:31 - 04:31] Thank you.
[04:31 - 04:37] So do you have, do you have in-house, um, repair techs, or is that subbed out?
[04:37 - 04:39] It technically is subbed out.
[04:39 - 04:42] We have, um, a few guys that are contractors that do that stuff for us.
[04:42 - 04:45] One of them, I don't know if he does work for other people or not.
[04:45 - 04:50] Um, we make sure to keep that line very clear of contractor versus W2.
[04:50 - 04:54] But we've done an evolution of both, and there's advantages and disadvantages to both.
[04:54 - 04:55] Um- Sure ...
[04:55 - 04:58] but it, it comes down to everything else-
[04:58 - 05:00] business, I kinda go with the flow and see where things are going.
[05:00 - 05:07] And there's been times when it was easier to get somebody W-2 on the job and get them doing those things, and there's been times it's been easier to get a contractor.
[05:07 - 05:10] So we've kinda just gone wherever the market takes us.
[05:10 - 05:18] It- it- really what it comes down to me isn't so much the cost, as long as it's decent cost, as long as we're getting things taken care of in a timely manner.
[05:18 - 05:23] Because if you don't take care of your tenants, they're gonna move out, and you're gonna have a make ready, you're gonna have vacancy, and that's where- Yep ...
[05:23 - 05:24] you just burn through cash flow.
[05:24 - 05:25] Good point.
[05:25 - 05:26] Absolutely.
[05:26 - 05:27] Turns are expensive.
[05:27 - 05:28] Very expensive.
[05:28 - 05:28] Yes.
[05:28 - 05:28] Oh, yes.
[05:28 - 05:29] They are.
[05:29 - 05:34] So do you have a goal on the size portfolio that you want, or are you...
[05:34 - 05:36] Do you have, uh, mile markers in place?
[05:36 - 05:46] Um, our original goal, about 10 years ago when we started buying rentals, was 150, and that was based off of a s- huge spreadsheet that I had at the time-
[05:46 - 05:46] Yep ...
[05:46 - 05:55] that took averages and tried to estimate inflation and rent growth over time, which really came down to an, a cash flow number.
[05:55 - 06:01] Um, that was long before I had my pilot's certificate or had my own plane.
[06:01 - 06:06] And my, my number's a lot higher now, but we don't have a specific number.
[06:06 - 06:09] Um, I know my wife probably does.
[06:09 - 06:12] I wanna say she's probably thinking 300 to f- 400 doors.
[06:12 - 06:20] Saying doors, though, is very misleading because you could have 100 doors that cash flow better than 1,000 doors.
[06:20 - 06:22] Um- Right ...
[06:22 - 06:25] w- well, something we always focus on is on what the true cash flow is.
[06:25 - 06:30] So whenever we're evaluating a property, and I don't wanna get too in the weeds for you, but we- It's okay ...
[06:30 - 06:35] don't just look at the gross numbers of, okay, our payment is this, our rent is that, we're cash flowing $500.
[06:35 - 06:37] That's BS.
[06:37 - 06:41] We have our maintenance costs, we have our CapEx, we have our vacancy that we have to account for.
[06:41 - 06:42] Yeah.
[06:42 - 06:44] We take all those things into account when we are looking at a rental.
[06:44 - 06:46] That's smart.
[06:46 - 06:48] And your number has to be higher now 'cause you're, you're...
[06:48 - 06:51] Not to talk about planes for the whole time, but you got a twin, right?
[06:51 - 06:52] So ...
[06:52 - 06:52] Yeah ...
[06:52 - 06:53] it's expensive.
[06:53 - 06:54] Yeah, I got a twin Cessna- ...
[06:54 - 06:56] so it, it burns a lot of fuel.
[06:56 - 06:57] Yeah.
[06:57 - 06:58] Here we go.
[06:58 - 06:59] Go ahead, Zach.
[06:59 - 07:00] Talk about planes.
[07:00 - 07:01] No, no- Go ahead ...
[07:01 - 07:02] I'm gonna restrain myself.
[07:02 - 07:05] So these properties, do, are they...
[07:05 - 07:08] Because you said you also do, what, four flips or so a month?
[07:08 - 07:08] Yep.
[07:08 - 07:14] Do you flip and keep them, or are they two separate tracks that you do, and you're scooping up other properties to hold?
[07:14 - 07:15] Or how do you do that?
[07:15 - 07:19] It's been just like when I was saying with the contractors.
[07:19 - 07:21] Um, it's kind of been what the market's given us.
[07:21 - 07:24] Um, right now we're flipping about four properties a month.
[07:24 - 07:27] Every few months we'll keep one of those as a rental.
[07:27 - 07:31] But there was one year when we picked up 40 rentals in, in 12 months.
[07:31 - 07:32] Um- Oh, wow ...
[07:32 - 07:43] and that was just because the, what the market was giving us, the leads that we were getting were great rental properties, and we could have wholesaled them and made a little bit more cash right then, but
[07:43 - 07:47] I was looking long term, um, not just the immediate.
[07:47 - 07:48] But n- right now we're ...
[07:48 - 07:55] With interest rates, with ARVs and rents where they are, it just makes more sense for us to flip most of them, so we're doing that.
[07:55 - 07:57] But- Yeah ...
[07:57 - 07:59] I don't like having a ton of money sitting in a rental property.
[07:59 - 08:00] Right.
[08:00 - 08:01] No.
[08:01 - 08:02] Right.
[08:02 - 08:02] No.
[08:02 - 08:09] And if it's not gonna cash flow unless you leave a ton of equity in there to keep that mortgage payment down, then yeah, it's, maybe it's not worth it.
[08:09 - 08:10] You're better off- Right ...
[08:10 - 08:10] just selling it.
[08:10 - 08:17] Now, I'm curious, when you rehab a property for sale versus one for your, for yourself, do you rehab them differently?
[08:17 - 08:20] And when you do it for yourself, do you harden it intentionally?
[08:20 - 08:22] We do it a little bit m- different.
[08:22 - 08:24] Um, we do...
[08:24 - 08:26] We don't go to the level that I know some landlords do.
[08:26 - 08:32] Like, I know some guys that, um, I call them Section 8 specials where, you know, you don't have ceiling fans in the rooms.
[08:32 - 08:35] You just have a, a, a little boob light up there or something.
[08:35 - 08:36] We don't go to that level.
[08:36 - 08:38] We use a lot of the same finishes.
[08:38 - 08:42] But we, on our rentals, we do make sure we're using materials that'll last.
[08:42 - 08:44] Um, when I first started, I tried to...
[08:44 - 08:45] And you'll love this.
[08:45 - 08:48] I tried to save what I could, and I got the cheapest tile I could- ...
[08:48 - 08:50] from Home Depot, which was, like, 49 cents a foot.
[08:50 - 08:51] So what happens?
[08:51 - 08:54] After too very long, it cracks.
[08:54 - 08:57] I mean, if there's any, anything happens, it was so thin, it would break.
[08:57 - 08:58] Well, what happens then?
[08:58 - 08:59] You have to pull stuff.
[08:59 - 09:01] It ends up costing you more.
[09:01 - 09:07] So now we make sure we use quality products, um, which a lot of times go in line with what we're doing on our flips.
[09:07 - 09:08] Oh.
[09:08 - 09:11] I think the main difference between our flips and our rentals is just the price point.
[09:11 - 09:12] Okay.
[09:12 - 09:13] Gotcha.
[09:13 - 09:18] So then you kinda hit it on the head here in the premise of the, uh, the podcast.
[09:18 - 09:20] It's not always best to get the lowest price, isn't it?
[09:20 - 09:22] Sometimes it's better to pay more.
[09:22 - 09:25] A lot of the time it is.
[09:25 - 09:25] Um- ...
[09:25 - 09:29] you get what you pay for, but also you get stuff that you don't think of.
[09:29 - 09:36] Um, for instance, I, I see coaches all the time talk about, you know, get leads nationwide.
[09:36 - 09:43] You can get them for $5 or do this or do that, and lead providers, you know, market, you know, you can get leads for $29.
[09:43 - 09:46] Okay, that's great, but that means I'm gonna have a lot more work.
[09:46 - 09:47] I'm gonna go through- Yeah ...
[09:47 - 09:55] a lot more leads, which, I mean, is in certain circumstances, if you only have X amount of dollars, it's only gonna go so far, great.
[09:55 - 09:56] But we-
[09:56 - 09:59] We go for the, in our home line, we go for the best leads.
[09:59 - 10:03] We go for the leads that are gonna have the highest conversion of, um, closing.
[10:03 - 10:07] We close about one in five to one in four properties we go on an appointment on.
[10:07 - 10:07] Wow.
[10:07 - 10:10] And we go on an appointment on almost all of our valid leads.
[10:10 - 10:11] That's huge.
[10:11 - 10:13] Um, yeah, it, it's massive.
[10:13 - 10:16] Now, do we pay a lot for those leads for our marketing?
[10:16 - 10:17] Yes.
[10:17 - 10:27] But I'd much rather spend, you know, four grand for the cost of a lead to make 50 grand than spend, you know, $50 per lead, but have to
[10:27 - 10:31] go through 20 times more leads and all that extra work, all that extra burnout.
[10:31 - 10:36] I don't go on the appointments anymore, but for our acquisition team, that's a lot more work and a lot more nos.
[10:36 - 10:42] And hearing no is part of the game, but at the same time, why, why put them through all that?
[10:42 - 10:43] Yeah.
[10:43 - 10:49] Pay more, get the better leads, get the better software, get the better, I mean, it, it- Make more money with less work.
[10:49 - 10:49] Why not?
[10:49 - 10:50] Exactly.
[10:50 - 10:51] Exactly.
[10:51 - 10:53] It's funny, I had somebody...
[10:53 - 11:01] My second company was a restoration company, property damage, fire, water, vehicle impact, and we did 250 to 300 jobs a year.
[11:01 - 11:03] And there was a company out of, uh...
[11:03 - 11:05] I, I was based in Idaho.
[11:05 - 11:12] There was a company based in Houston that was multiple times my size, but they were losing a million to a million and a half a year.
[11:12 - 11:13] Well, hell- Yeah ...
[11:13 - 11:15] you can go fishing for free.
[11:15 - 11:17] They ultimately went bankrupt- Mm ...
[11:17 - 11:19] uh, and they took down their money guy with them.
[11:19 - 11:20] Uh- Mm-hmm ...
[11:20 - 11:26] 'cause he just kept throwing money at it, and it was just a matter of, "Okay, guys, listen, you're doing X amount in revenue, and that sounds great.
[11:26 - 11:27] That's fantastic." Mm.
[11:27 - 11:29] "But that's a vanity number.
[11:29 - 11:31] You're not putting any money in your pocket.
[11:31 - 11:34] You're gonna run out of cash at some point." Right.
[11:34 - 11:36] And they ultimately ran out of cash.
[11:36 - 11:39] So yeah, it, it's the quality.
[11:39 - 11:39] I'm sorry.
[11:39 - 11:39] Yeah.
[11:39 - 11:40] Are you doing it for fun?
[11:40 - 11:41] Is that what you're trying to do?
[11:41 - 11:42] Yeah.
[11:42 - 11:43] Yeah.
[11:43 - 11:46] If I can do less work, I mean, these guys could have gone, like I said, fishing for free.
[11:46 - 11:47] Yeah.
[11:47 - 11:47] What's...
[11:47 - 11:50] And it, it wouldn't, wouldn't have cost them a million dollars a year.
[11:50 - 11:51] I mean, that's just crazy.
[11:51 - 11:52] So I'm with you.
[11:52 - 11:53] Yeah.
[11:53 - 11:56] Pay more and, uh, a- and do less work.
[11:56 - 11:57] Yeah.
[11:57 - 12:00] And you ultimately net more money, so that, that's cool.
[12:00 - 12:00] Yeah.
[12:00 - 12:00] And- So now...
[12:00 - 12:01] Go ahead.
[12:01 - 12:10] Sorry, I was gonna, I was gonna say, sorry, kinda going back to that, there was a time when I fell into the trap of, oh, let's grow, let's scale, let's do this, the ego.
[12:10 - 12:11] I, I didn't- Oh, big time ...
[12:11 - 12:13] admit it back then, but it was all ego.
[12:13 - 12:13] Sure.
[12:13 - 12:14] And we started scaling.
[12:14 - 12:15] We had a bigger team.
[12:15 - 12:20] We were doing 20, 25 deals a month, and I was actually netting less than I am now- Oh ...
[12:20 - 12:21] with four properties a month.
[12:21 - 12:21] Pain.
[12:21 - 12:26] Because so many of those were such skinny deals that they just really didn't make sense.
[12:26 - 12:29] We weren't really making money- Yeah ...
[12:29 - 12:30] and we were just spinning our wheels.
[12:30 - 12:37] And I think a lot of people, they build this machine with all this overhead, and then they have to do all these skinny deals just- Mm-hmm ...
[12:37 - 12:40] to break even each month, and that also adds a lot of stress.
[12:40 - 12:41] Why?
[12:41 - 12:42] Why?
[12:42 - 12:42] Yeah.
[12:42 - 12:42] Yeah.
[12:42 - 12:46] And I don't hear anybody saying they wanna get into real estate to add more stress to their life.
[12:46 - 12:46] Right.
[12:46 - 12:48] Yeah, that's a good point.
[12:48 - 12:48] I've never heard it.
[12:48 - 12:53] You wanna take more time off and wear alligator shirts every day.
[12:53 - 12:54] Exactly.
[12:54 - 12:54] I'm with you.
[12:54 - 12:54] Exactly.
[12:54 - 12:56] You wanna relax a little bit.
[12:56 - 12:57] I'm with you completely.
[12:57 - 13:03] It's kinda like in the lending business that Zach and I are in, we know a couple of guys from the East Coast that go through a- Yeah ...
[13:03 - 13:09] couple of hundred leads a month just to put out five, 10 loans.
[13:09 - 13:10] Why?
[13:10 - 13:12] Absolutely no way.
[13:12 - 13:14] They're going 250- It's a lot of work, yeah ...
[13:14 - 13:15] if it, you figure out, if it's...
[13:15 - 13:18] They're going hundreds of leads every month.
[13:18 - 13:19] There's just no way.
[13:19 - 13:23] Zach and I close the majority of loans that come across our desk- Yeah ...
[13:23 - 13:25] because we have quality relationships, et cetera.
[13:25 - 13:28] And I just don't wanna go through that volume.
[13:28 - 13:29] We don't even advertise.
[13:29 - 13:29] It's- Because I don't want the pain ...
[13:29 - 13:32] if my phone rang 500 times a month, I'd smash it.
[13:32 - 13:33] There's no way.
[13:33 - 13:34] I can't.
[13:34 - 13:36] Well, you're right.
[13:36 - 13:39] That's what it is, it's they go through a thousand leads a month.
[13:39 - 13:39] That's right.
[13:39 - 13:40] Is that right, Zach?
[13:40 - 13:40] Yeah.
[13:40 - 13:41] So they're doing- I think so, yeah ...
[13:41 - 13:43] 250 leads a week.
[13:43 - 13:45] That's 50 leads a day- Imagine that ...
[13:45 - 13:46] to put out 10- No, thank you ...
[13:46 - 13:47] to 15 loans.
[13:47 - 13:48] There's no way.
[13:48 - 13:48] No.
[13:48 - 13:49] No, thank you.
[13:49 - 13:50] No.
[13:50 - 13:50] No, thank you.
[13:50 - 13:56] And something else that people take for granted is the value of a relationship.
[13:56 - 13:57] We have a- Absolutely ...
[13:57 - 14:03] a relationship with a great community bank here in Oklahoma City, and can I get better rates than what they offer?
[14:03 - 14:04] Yes.
[14:04 - 14:06] Did they say that when I met with them the first time?
[14:06 - 14:06] Yeah.
[14:06 - 14:08] But you know what?
[14:08 - 14:11] It is so much easier working with them, so much easier.
[14:11 - 14:11] I don't have...
[14:11 - 14:16] I mean, they still go through their checks and balances, but man, it's, it's so much...
[14:16 - 14:18] I, I, I financed my plane with them.
[14:18 - 14:18] Yeah.
[14:18 - 14:19] Yeah.
[14:19 - 14:19] I'll tell you.
[14:19 - 14:20] That's pretty cool.
[14:20 - 14:24] It, it's funny that you say this 'cause we talk about paying more money, and again, that's the premise of the show.
[14:24 - 14:29] But for me, for years, I would try and get the cheapest flight.
[14:29 - 14:36] And then I had a conversation with a guy one day, and he was saying that to go to his event, you have to fly first class.
[14:36 - 14:41] If you don't, don't come to the event because you're not the right person that we want in the room.
[14:41 - 14:44] And he said, "When you get the hotel, you can get...
[14:44 - 14:48] You gotta stay in the hotel I'm at, that the event is at, but don't get the cheapest room.
[14:48 - 14:54] Get a suite, and you will come to this event in a much different frame of mind
[14:55 - 14:57] Said, "Okay, it's the only way to get to the event.
[14:57 - 15:02] I'll do it." And then after flying first class, I realized all the benefits of it.
[15:02 - 15:03] Yeah.
[15:03 - 15:08] The benefits are I can get on the plane first, I can work.
[15:08 - 15:18] As soon as I get on the plane, I put my computer out, get it in front of me, and interesting thing is they're not as adamant about putting your computer away in first class.
[15:18 - 15:19] Big secret.
[15:19 - 15:25] Um, additionally, I get Wi-Fi all the time, and I can use the lounge.
[15:25 - 15:26] Yeah.
[15:26 - 15:30] So if I get to the airport early, I can use the lounge as well because that's part of it.
[15:30 - 15:32] So I can be more productive.
[15:32 - 15:41] So in actuality, it's cheaper for me to fly first class than it is to fly coach, because in coach I've got someone sitting on the side of me.
[15:41 - 15:44] The person in front of me always seems to put their recliner back- Mm-hmm ...
[15:44 - 15:47] their seat back, and then I'm trying to type like this- Yeah, right.
[15:47 - 15:47] ...
[15:47 - 15:50] but you just can't do it, and it just, it's just not productive.
[15:50 - 15:54] So paying more money, I actually spend less money.
[15:54 - 15:55] Yeah.
[15:55 - 15:55] Yeah.
[15:55 - 15:55] Oddly enough.
[15:55 - 15:56] So...
[15:56 - 15:58] And, and people don't get that.
[15:58 - 16:05] They just see the immediate gratification, or perhaps there's a better word, but the immediate gratification of spending less right now.
[16:05 - 16:06] This is gonna cost me less.
[16:06 - 16:10] They're not looking at the opportunity cost of what doing something else would be worth.
[16:10 - 16:11] Yeah, absolutely.
[16:11 - 16:13] That's like joining masterminds.
[16:13 - 16:14] Oh, yeah.
[16:14 - 16:14] Oh, yeah.
[16:14 - 16:17] I have people think I'm crazy because I'm a m- member of three different masterminds.
[16:17 - 16:18] I mean, that's a lot of money every year.
[16:18 - 16:19] Yeah, it is.
[16:19 - 16:19] It is.
[16:19 - 16:20] It is a lot of money every year.
[16:20 - 16:21] Yep.
[16:21 - 16:23] But it is so worth it.
[16:23 - 16:23] Yeah.
[16:23 - 16:32] Uh, the relationships I gain, the experience I gain, the insight that I get from hearing what other people are doing, it, it's a massive investment.
[16:32 - 16:35] It's hard to have that conversation with most people.
[16:35 - 16:36] Mm-hmm.
[16:36 - 16:42] When you, you know, buy masterminds and stuff, eventually I've just kind of given up a lot of the time, 'cause you can't, you can't convince somebody.
[16:42 - 16:52] Well, let me ask you a question on, do you find that the more expensive the mastermind, the higher quality of person that is in it?
[16:52 - 16:54] Generally speaking, yeah.
[16:54 - 16:55] Okay.
[16:55 - 16:55] Yeah, me too.
[16:55 - 17:02] I find that, uh, if you have a free mastermind or a $97 a month one, the quality of people is completely different.
[17:02 - 17:03] Yeah.
[17:03 - 17:12] And what I find interesting is if you go to somebody who's been in high quality masterminds and you say you have a mastermind that's only $250 a month, they won't even listen to you.
[17:12 - 17:12] Not interested.
[17:12 - 17:12] Yeah, they're not.
[17:12 - 17:14] 'Cause they know exactly what's gonna happen.
[17:14 - 17:16] Uh, they know the type of people that you're gonna get in.
[17:16 - 17:26] Do you find that the better quality masterminds truly interview, uh, potential members, uh, versus just taking money from anybody who puts it up?
[17:26 - 17:34] They all say they do, but I haven't been turned down by one yet, so I'm not sure if their interview process is good or not.
[17:34 - 17:36] Or you're good at interviewing, or what?
[17:36 - 17:36] Maybe.
[17:36 - 17:37] Maybe.
[17:37 - 17:38] I don't know.
[17:38 - 17:39] Maybe I'm good at interviewing.
[17:39 - 17:40] I don't know.
[17:40 - 17:42] That's funny.
[17:42 - 17:44] But I think that is a vital thing.
[17:44 - 17:53] I, I've been part of other groups, not masterminds, other groups, that just let anybody in, and it's like, you know, you start meeting, and that brings the whole level of the room down.
[17:53 - 17:54] Now- Yes, it does ...
[17:54 - 17:57] that doesn't mean everybody has to be up at the massive top level.
[17:57 - 17:58] Right.
[17:58 - 18:02] But you need to have them in the same range.
[18:02 - 18:03] I- Yeah ...
[18:03 - 18:04] couldn't agree more.
[18:04 - 18:14] I started my first business back when dinosaurs ruled the Earth in 1987, and for me to go into a room with people that have been in business for two years,
[18:14 - 18:15] I can't.
[18:15 - 18:16] Mm.
[18:16 - 18:17] Not because I can't...
[18:17 - 18:19] I can interact with them.
[18:19 - 18:19] I...
[18:19 - 18:29] It's difficult for me to have conversation because I have all of this information in my head, and they ask a question, and I just hit them with everything, and they don't know what to do with it.
[18:29 - 18:34] They can't ping on anything, and I have to explain the most basic stuff, and we run out of time.
[18:34 - 18:41] They get frustrated, and then they want me to be their mentor because we're in the mastermind together, and I just don't have time for it.
[18:41 - 18:43] I've got stuff going on in my own life- Mm ...
[18:43 - 18:51] and I have to prioritize that, and I've got to be around people that when I talk about something and I say, you know, uh, uh, "This is a thing that I do with borrowers.
[18:51 - 18:55] Send me your OA." "What's an OA?" "Well, that's an operating agreement.
[18:55 - 19:01] If you don't know that vernacular, I can't help you." Um, we have to just, you know, "Send me your EIN.
[19:01 - 19:11] Send me your OA, and, you know, send me your P&L." And when they're asking questions as to what those are, then I know I've got somebody new, and it's gonna be a very difficult conversation, 'cause I have to educate them
[19:11 - 19:11] as I go along.
[19:11 - 19:13] Um- Yeah, that's fair ...
[19:13 - 19:13] it's making noise.
[19:13 - 19:23] I will say somebody who's been in business a little bit longer or actually has a better head on their shoulders and understands those things, I do like talking to at times,
[19:23 - 19:25] because a lot of times they're the...
[19:25 - 19:28] they're innovating things, and they're doing things that- Yeah ...
[19:28 - 19:30] people who have been in a long time haven't.
[19:30 - 19:30] That's a good point.
[19:30 - 19:34] Now, there is a difference between that and somebody who doesn't know what an operating agreement is, 100%.
[19:34 - 19:34] Right.
[19:34 - 19:34] Right.
[19:34 - 19:44] But I like, I like being involved with people who are small and starting and doing, but have that great mindset and that great mind, and they're thinking through things, not just
[19:44 - 19:46] shiny object running all over the place.
[19:46 - 19:47] What's the next thing?
[19:47 - 19:48] Excellent point.
[19:48 - 19:48] Yep.
[19:48 - 19:49] Excellent point.
[19:49 - 19:50] That, that's very valid.
[19:50 - 19:51] When you've got...
[19:51 - 19:53] Because what happens, the flip side of that-
[19:53 - 20:03] yeah, is if you've got somebody who's been in the business for a long time, and I know Zach and I were at a meeting recently where we spoke with someone in the real estate industry, and he was just so set in his
[20:03 - 20:07] way that he wasn't listening to anything that we were saying to him, and we finally just said, "Okay.
[20:07 - 20:09] You're right." But- Yeah.
[20:09 - 20:10] Yeah ...
[20:10 - 20:13] if you've got somebody, and it's called, in Buddhism, it's called a fresh mind.
[20:13 - 20:13] Mm-hmm.
[20:13 - 20:22] If you've got somebody who has a fresh mind, they have a different perspective on something, and people go, "Ah, I hadn't thought about that yet." So I'm in agreement with you.
[20:22 - 20:27] Somebody who, who has a fresh perspective on something can absolutely add something new.
[20:27 - 20:28] That's an excellent point.
[20:28 - 20:29] Yeah.
[20:29 - 20:30] Excellent point.
[20:30 - 20:31] Yeah, that's true.
[20:31 - 20:35] So tell us about the software package that you've, that you're developing.
[20:35 - 20:39] You said that you found, um, some things wanting in the industry.
[20:39 - 20:40] Yeah.
[20:40 - 20:44] We, at that point, when we started PEAT, or actually before we started PEAT, I...
[20:44 - 20:56] Now I have a software development background, but we did a mix of wholesaling, um, wholetailing, buying and holding, flipping, and I found us
[20:56 - 21:00] losing money on a consistent basis on different things.
[21:00 - 21:04] You know, um, notes from the acquisition process wouldn't make it to the rehab.
[21:04 - 21:13] Or, um, you know, okay, solution is give the project managers access to the CRM so they can see those notes.
[21:13 - 21:14] Well, now they're looking at notes here.
[21:14 - 21:15] They're looking at notes in Drive.
[21:15 - 21:26] They're looking in the CRM, which the CRM costs another license, and it was just, I just saw money flooding out, and I was like, "I need to start bringing this stuff together." And it's
[21:26 - 21:30] kind of funny now looking back because my wife, she's the, she's a bigger visionary than me.
[21:30 - 21:35] She was quickly like, "John, this is, like, everybody else is having these same problems.
[21:35 - 21:39] You should, like, make this so other people can use it." I was like, "Absolutely not.
[21:39 - 21:39] I've dealt with...
[21:39 - 21:41] I've worked for a SaaS for 10 years.
[21:41 - 21:46] I don't wanna do it again." Well, eventually enough people were asking about it.
[21:46 - 21:47] I was like, "Okay, fine.
[21:47 - 21:50] Let's make it real." And so we just brought it together.
[21:50 - 21:51] People call it a CRM.
[21:51 - 21:53] Um, it's a lot more.
[21:53 - 21:59] We take, it starts with the lead, and then everything focuses on the property, not on the seller.
[21:59 - 22:03] A CRM's gonna focus on the seller, which makes sense because that's its function.
[22:03 - 22:04] Yeah.
[22:04 - 22:05] PEAT is more like an operating system.
[22:05 - 22:09] Everything relates around the property from when the lead comes in.
[22:09 - 22:11] You get it under contract.
[22:11 - 22:13] If you're flipping it, you can manage your flip through it.
[22:13 - 22:16] If you're holding it, you can manage your rental in it.
[22:16 - 22:22] You have all your KPIs in one place, all your files stored in one place, all your automations in one place.
[22:22 - 22:25] Not having to jump here, jump there to try to get this tool to that tool.
[22:25 - 22:33] Just putting it together so it can be a whole life cycle instead of just a CRM that then has to go to Asana or something else.
[22:33 - 22:34] Okay.
[22:34 - 22:37] So how many subscribers do you have?
[22:37 - 22:37] Can you share that?
[22:37 - 22:39] We have about 170 right now.
[22:39 - 22:40] Okay.
[22:40 - 22:40] Nice.
[22:40 - 22:46] And is this something that you're actively marketing to, uh, the in, the, uh, f- real estate industry?
[22:46 - 22:48] We are.
[22:48 - 22:52] Um, I- Go back to premise of the podcast.
[22:52 - 22:56] I tried to save money and do the marketing myself for the first year or so.
[22:56 - 22:59] And that was a major bomb.
[22:59 - 23:00] I'm horrible at marketing.
[23:00 - 23:01] I'm, I'm not great at sales.
[23:01 - 23:02] Those aren't my skills.
[23:02 - 23:04] Um, so we've revamped.
[23:04 - 23:12] We have somebody that's, um, doing, um, marketing for us now, plus we have somebody in the sales role, and we're picking, picking up more steam.
[23:12 - 23:13] Okay.
[23:13 - 23:15] What's the, uh, like internals of it?
[23:15 - 23:21] Do you have, like, developers that you've hired, or is it all, like, contractors, or how'd you, how do you manage the team?
[23:21 - 23:22] We've done a combination.
[23:22 - 23:25] The developers, um, that we have now, um...
[23:25 - 23:26] Well, this is a little interesting thing.
[23:26 - 23:32] We had three full-time developers by, at the beginning of the year.
[23:32 - 23:38] Um, through the use of AI tools, we got rid of two of them, and we're doing more output now than we were before we- Hmm ...
[23:38 - 23:39] let them go.
[23:39 - 23:41] Um, he's technically a contractor.
[23:41 - 23:42] He's in Romania.
[23:42 - 23:45] And then our support, sales and support is in, in-house.
[23:45 - 23:47] He's usually in the same office as me.
[23:47 - 23:53] He's an experienced wholesaler, which brings another element on both the sales and support side because he actually understands what people are talking about.
[23:53 - 23:55] Yeah, that's huge.
[23:55 - 23:55] Um- Yeah.
[23:55 - 23:59] And then, um, our marketing person is out of Chicago.
[23:59 - 24:01] Okay.
[24:01 - 24:01] Nice.
[24:01 - 24:01] We're a small team.
[24:01 - 24:02] I like small teams.
[24:02 - 24:02] Yeah.
[24:02 - 24:03] I don't like big teams.
[24:03 - 24:04] Things get lost.
[24:04 - 24:05] You have too much red tape.
[24:05 - 24:09] Yeah, too much communication if, yeah, if you don't need it.
[24:09 - 24:15] Yeah, and there comes a point where, like you said, you don't, um, you don't get into business to add more stress to your life.
[24:15 - 24:23] You get it to simplify your life, and if you've got too many members to the team, it, it creates its own animal- Yeah ...
[24:23 - 24:24] i-i-in itself.
[24:24 - 24:24] Yeah.
[24:24 - 24:25] Yeah.
[24:25 - 24:26] I prefer small.
[24:26 - 24:30] When I bank, I want a small bank because I'd rather be a big fish in a small pond.
[24:30 - 24:32] I would never go to Chase because they don't care about me.
[24:32 - 24:33] Exactly.
[24:33 - 24:34] And it doesn't matter.
[24:34 - 24:34] Yeah.
[24:34 - 24:36] And they let you know they don't care about you.
[24:36 - 24:37] Yeah.
[24:37 - 24:38] So yeah.
[24:38 - 24:47] So tell me about, uh, I know that you said that in, uh, your resume, y-your bio says that a lot of founders have left real estate.
[24:47 - 24:49] Um, why do you think that is?
[24:49 - 24:51] Do you think that's, you're seeing that nationwide or-
[24:51 - 24:52] Just in your specific market?
[24:52 - 24:54] Um, both.
[24:54 - 24:58] Um, a lot have because it got hard.
[24:58 - 25:04] It's gotten hard when, since interest rates went up, and a lot of people don't have the, the ability to pivot.
[25:04 - 25:12] I was talking with somebody yesterday actually about this, and when the market changes, even if it's a little bit, we need to be able to pivot some.
[25:12 - 25:13] Sure.
[25:13 - 25:18] Um, if interest rates went up, you know, the...
[25:18 - 25:22] If prime went up to 12, you would not be lending at 12 or 14%.
[25:22 - 25:23] You would have to pivot.
[25:23 - 25:24] You would have to do something else.
[25:24 - 25:25] Yeah.
[25:25 - 25:25] Good point.
[25:25 - 25:30] That's a small pivot, but too many got caught in, "Okay, I'm gonna sell to hedge funds." Yeah.
[25:30 - 25:34] Well, the hedge funds have pulled back now, and they didn't have another business.
[25:34 - 25:35] Well, you have to be able to pivot.
[25:35 - 25:39] You have to see where things are going, and nobody has a crystal ball.
[25:39 - 25:45] Nobody's gonna know exactly when the perfect time is to pivot, but you have to be looking for those things and, and moving around.
[25:45 - 25:49] If I was still just trying to buy rentals, I'd be in a bad spot right now.
[25:49 - 25:49] Yeah.
[25:49 - 25:58] Likewise, the year that I held or I took on 40 rentals, if we were just trying to flip those or wholesale those, I would've had a great year, but now I wouldn't have that income.
[25:58 - 25:59] Yeah.
[25:59 - 26:09] It's like all the hard money lenders that were selling their loans to Wall Street, similar people selling flips to Wall Street back when COVID started, and they dried up and stopped lending, and they just went out of
[26:09 - 26:10] business overnight.
[26:10 - 26:10] Yeah.
[26:10 - 26:11] There was no chance to pivot.
[26:11 - 26:12] You were done.
[26:12 - 26:22] There's no chance, but at the same time, there's, there's ways to think of things, and maybe you have to look outside the box and take a completely different angle.
[26:22 - 26:22] Yes.
[26:22 - 26:22] Yes.
[26:22 - 26:26] And- If you build your whole business on that one thing and it dries up- Exactly ...
[26:26 - 26:27] you're done.
[26:27 - 26:27] Yep.
[26:27 - 26:28] Exactly.
[26:28 - 26:33] Um, that person I was talking to yesterday has gone through an evolution.
[26:33 - 26:37] They were in land, and then they were in coaching, and they've kind of done some other stuff.
[26:37 - 26:41] They're in data now, and they're just, they're s- looking for opportunities, and they're always...
[26:41 - 26:45] When they have an opportunity come, they make sure it's not a shiny object.
[26:45 - 26:47] Is this going to get me to my North Star?
[26:47 - 26:47] Yeah.
[26:47 - 26:52] But then also, is it a viable, actually viable solution?
[26:52 - 26:54] Too often people get that shiny object.
[26:54 - 27:00] That's another reason they fail is they go, "Oh, this shiny object, this is the new trend.
[27:00 - 27:05] Gurus are talking about this, so I'm gonna go over here and do this." You have a great wholesaling company.
[27:05 - 27:06] Why are you gonna start novating?
[27:06 - 27:07] Just- Yeah ...
[27:07 - 27:09] not trying to pick on novating, just giving an example.
[27:09 - 27:09] Sure.
[27:09 - 27:13] They abandon what they're doing that's working because they get bored.
[27:13 - 27:14] That's a good, good...
[27:14 - 27:21] Talk about maybe personally, like, yeah, how do you tell the difference between a shiny object and something that's actually a pivot?
[27:21 - 27:22] It's tough.
[27:22 - 27:23] Um- Yeah ...
[27:23 - 27:28] really when it comes down is, um, Amy and I, we run the businesses together.
[27:28 - 27:29] I'm primarily on the pizza side.
[27:29 - 27:38] She's primarily on the house flipping side, but we run everything by each other, and one of the things I'll ask her just straight up, "Is this a shiny object?" And then she never answers the question.
[27:38 - 27:41] She just is great at mirroring and reversing me.
[27:41 - 27:49] Um, where she gets me to the result, and really what it comes down to is, is, am I abandoning something else?
[27:49 - 27:53] Which the answer's always gonna be yes, 'cause I only have so much time.
[27:53 - 27:56] Is what I'm abandoning...
[27:56 - 28:01] I have to figure out what I'm gonna leave behind, and is this new opportunity better than that?
[28:01 - 28:03] I like that.
[28:03 - 28:04] And then go from there.
[28:04 - 28:04] Gotcha.
[28:04 - 28:12] Yeah, so the question is, is what you're saying no to something you should be saying no to, and moving on to something else.
[28:12 - 28:16] Yeah, because I know, you know, all entrepreneurs have that issue- Mm-hmm ...
[28:16 - 28:21] chasing shiny objects and going for the next thing, as opposed to going deep.
[28:21 - 28:26] So what they do is they go, you know, um, a mile wide and an inch deep.
[28:26 - 28:28] Well- When in reality, it'd be better if you just dove in.
[28:28 - 28:30] And the same go- Yeah ...
[28:30 - 28:40] A similar example is somebody who's flipping or wholesaling or whatever the case is in their local market, it's a, an ego trip to go into another market.
[28:40 - 28:41] "I'm gonna be in two markets.
[28:41 - 28:44] I'm gonna be five markets." Just go deeper in your market.
[28:44 - 28:45] You know it well.
[28:45 - 28:46] Go deeper in your market.
[28:46 - 28:47] There's deals there.
[28:47 - 28:48] Just keep going deeper there.
[28:48 - 28:49] You're gonna do better.
[28:49 - 28:55] You try to expand yourself and stretch yourself so far, you're gonna end up breaking, or at least have a lot higher chance of breaking.
[28:55 - 29:01] Well, what I find interesting is when somebody says that they have saturated their market- Mm.
[29:01 - 29:01] ...
[29:01 - 29:06] and then you speak with a, uh, title company, and they say, "Yeah, I've never heard of them." Yeah.
[29:06 - 29:06] Right?
[29:06 - 29:10] That's when you go, "That's fantastic." Every title company in town should know who you are.
[29:10 - 29:11] You know?
[29:11 - 29:12] Yeah.
[29:12 - 29:13] No, I've had that happen.
[29:13 - 29:23] People tell me how deep they are on their market, and that's why they're expanding, and I, "Well, hold on a minute now." And then I'll speak with a couple title companies, 'cause as a lender we speak to a lot, and they'll say, "Yeah,
[29:23 - 29:25] I don't know who that is." Yeah.
[29:25 - 29:30] Unless your town's got two houses and you own both of them, you haven't saturated your market.
[29:30 - 29:31] Yeah.
[29:31 - 29:35] So how big do you think your market is within Oklahoma City?
[29:35 - 29:40] As far as, like, the number of flips or distressed properties or- Yeah.
[29:40 - 29:42] How, how deep do you think you could actually go?
[29:42 - 29:43] How many properties do you think...
[29:43 - 29:45] I know you said your goal is, what was it, 300 houses?
[29:45 - 29:49] Oh, we could- How big do you think it could- There is so much, there's so much opportunity here.
[29:49 - 29:49] If we really-
[29:49 - 29:53] One, we could get a couple thousand houses if we really, really, really wanted to.
[29:53 - 29:54] Okay.
[29:54 - 30:04] Um, but that comes down to, you know, how hard do I wanna work, and how big do I want the machine to get those, and then do I want a machine that's that large to take care of
[30:04 - 30:05] all those?
[30:05 - 30:06] I mean, the cash would be- Sure ...
[30:06 - 30:07] nice in theory, yes.
[30:07 - 30:10] But I don't like managing a lot of people.
[30:10 - 30:19] I like a small team, and if we get to 3, 400 doors, that's, it's still a small team, but I don't know if I'd wanna be any bigger than that.
[30:19 - 30:20] Gotcha.
[30:20 - 30:22] So how many hours a week do you work now?
[30:22 - 30:25] How many do you see yourself working when you get to that many doors?
[30:25 - 30:27] Are you gonna find, uh, the who to do the what?
[30:27 - 30:29] Well, great question.
[30:29 - 30:36] On our flipping and rental business, I spend five, six hours a week combined on those two.
[30:36 - 30:38] I don't spend much time in those as it is.
[30:38 - 30:44] Um, Amy works probably 20 hours-ish on those per week.
[30:44 - 30:46] Most of my time is on Pete, and it's...
[30:46 - 30:52] I could pull back on what I'm doing in Pete right now and still let it grow, but I enjoy it.
[30:52 - 30:53] So- Sure ...
[30:53 - 31:00] I work 40, 45 hours probably if you take into account, you know, messing on the laptop and while watching TV at night.
[31:00 - 31:04] But I'm enjoying it still, so at some point we will...
[31:04 - 31:05] I'll pull back.
[31:05 - 31:07] Um, but right now I, I'm enjoying the ride.
[31:07 - 31:08] It's fun for me.
[31:08 - 31:09] Yeah.
[31:09 - 31:09] What's- Absolutely ...
[31:09 - 31:11] your longer term plan with Pete then?
[31:11 - 31:14] It seems like it started as a project, and now you're having fun with it.
[31:14 - 31:16] Do you have an end in mind, or?
[31:16 - 31:18] I don't.
[31:18 - 31:23] Um, I mean, most people who start SaaS are looking for a, a sale to- Yeah ...
[31:23 - 31:24] um, of some kind.
[31:24 - 31:25] Yeah.
[31:25 - 31:28] Ca- I like cashflow.
[31:28 - 31:34] I mean, yeah, if somebody came and offered me a crazy amount of money, I'd certainly entertain it, but I'm just, I'm enjoying the ride.
[31:34 - 31:42] Um, I know you can take a SaaS business and have it, if you're steadily making improvements, you can continue that cashflow over and over and over again.
[31:42 - 31:43] It can be wonderful.
[31:43 - 31:45] Yeah.
[31:45 - 31:45] It's true.
[31:45 - 31:54] It's funny, my, my first business was medical alert systems, push a button, get an ambulance, and that was back in '87, as I said earlier, when dinosaurs roamed the Earth.
[31:54 - 32:04] And, uh, in '98, somebody came to us and offered us some money for the business, and at that point, my partner and I were done with each other.
[32:04 - 32:11] And they came to negotiate with us, and w- they, their first offer was more than we thought we would ever get for the business.
[32:11 - 32:14] And you know the first offer's not the offer.
[32:14 - 32:15] So we actually...
[32:15 - 32:23] You know, I remember s- sitting, uh, saying to Carl- saying to Carlos, "So w- so what do you think about that?" And he said, "Yeah, I can't even discuss it.
[32:23 - 32:25] We need to step out.
[32:25 - 32:29] Let's go to my office." We went to his office, and again, at this point we're not talking to each other, we're hugging.
[32:29 - 32:34] We're like, "Fuck." Yeah.
[32:34 - 32:38] And sometimes, yeah- Meanwhile, the, the people that are buying it are like, "Oh my God, we made such a low offer.
[32:38 - 32:42] We insulted them." And you guys are doing jumping jacks in the other room.
[32:42 - 32:48] Yep, and, and things like that happen sometimes.
[32:48 - 32:54] I mean, you, we don't know what our life, what turns we're gonna take in our life and what's gonna come.
[32:54 - 33:04] And I think having a one-year, five-year, 10-year plan, et cetera, is good, but I focus more on generalities on long-term than
[33:04 - 33:07] num- specific number of doors or this specific plan.
[33:07 - 33:09] Because I know that things are gonna change.
[33:09 - 33:15] I know that, you know, if, if, if life is a river, it's going to move and things are gonna happen.
[33:15 - 33:22] Just like when you're up in an airplane, the winds are gonna shift, and sometimes it's gonna be easy, sometimes it's gonna be hard.
[33:22 - 33:23] You know?
[33:23 - 33:24] Be open to it.
[33:24 - 33:33] I think, I, just going back to going where everything goes, I like being able to shift and not be stuck in a single path and have a single exit.
[33:33 - 33:34] Does that make sense?
[33:34 - 33:35] Yeah.
[33:35 - 33:36] It makes complete sense.
[33:36 - 33:36] Perfect.
[33:36 - 33:39] Let me ask, that's, that's a pretty evolved, uh, thought process.
[33:39 - 33:40] Where do you think that came from?
[33:40 - 33:41] I don't know.
[33:41 - 33:41] I don't know.
[33:41 - 33:43] Um, my parents were entrepreneurs.
[33:43 - 33:45] They, um, had an accounting office.
[33:45 - 33:47] Um, they worked together.
[33:47 - 33:49] My in-laws work together.
[33:49 - 33:51] Um- Uh.
[33:51 - 33:53] I just, I don't know.
[33:53 - 33:53] I don't like being...
[33:53 - 34:03] I'm afraid if I try to be selective, too selective of this is the path we're going to take, that eventually there's gonna be, you know, a bridge broken on the
[34:03 - 34:06] path, and at that point I'm just, oh, I don't know what to do.
[34:06 - 34:07] And I don't like that.
[34:07 - 34:08] I like to have options.
[34:08 - 34:11] I like to have a spider web of things that can happen.
[34:11 - 34:14] Y- you hit on something that I, I wanna ask about.
[34:14 - 34:19] You said that your parents, your in-laws, and now you and your wife are all partners together.
[34:19 - 34:20] From...
[34:20 - 34:25] I, I've been with the same pretty lady for going on almost 38 years.
[34:25 - 34:26] Congrats.
[34:26 - 34:31] And for me, we don't work together.
[34:31 - 34:32] She actually is retired now.
[34:32 - 34:42] Um, but we don't work together because in my estimation, and let me know where I'm wrong here, and I, I'm good with that, if you have a disagreement
[34:42 - 34:46] at home, it goes to work, and vice versa.
[34:46 - 34:47] How do you handle
[34:48 - 34:53] you know, tension or friction at work and home and not making it, uh, pollute the other environment?
[34:53 - 34:55] It's tough.
[34:55 - 34:58] It, uh, it is tough, and it's not perfect by any means.
[34:58 - 35:00] I mean, there's times that there is overlap.
[35:00 - 35:04] Um, anybody who says that there's not is full of it.
[35:04 - 35:14] Um, but it's keeping the relationship as the most important thing, and then understanding and agreeing
[35:14 - 35:16] on each other's lanes and respecting those lanes.
[35:16 - 35:19] Um- Yeah ...
[35:19 - 35:23] if Amy disagrees with something that I'm doing, she'll come, and we'll...
[35:23 - 35:24] She'll bring it up, and we'll talk about it.
[35:24 - 35:34] But just like, you know, Mike, if you and I were partners, and we were in front of the team, if you said something that I didn't agree with, I wouldn't just undermine you
[35:34 - 35:36] and start saying why you're wrong in front of the team.
[35:36 - 35:37] Sure.
[35:37 - 35:40] Same thing with a spouse as a partner, just a little bit more so.
[35:40 - 35:41] You just have to be a little more careful.
[35:41 - 35:43] So it is very difficult.
[35:43 - 35:46] Um, but Amy and I both have seen our parents do it.
[35:46 - 35:55] We've seen the struggles at times and then also the successes, and we l- She still likes spending time with me, so I, that- Hey ...
[35:55 - 35:56] that's, that's a plus.
[35:56 - 35:57] It's working.
[35:57 - 35:58] Yeah.
[35:58 - 35:59] How long have you been married?
[35:59 - 36:02] Uh, this summer will be 19 years.
[36:02 - 36:03] Good for you, man.
[36:03 - 36:04] Nice.
[36:04 - 36:04] That's awesome.
[36:04 - 36:06] So tell me about...
[36:06 - 36:07] Now, you do some fun stuff.
[36:07 - 36:13] I know Zach is definitely gonna wanna talk about this 'cause he's recently, uh, started, uh, training.
[36:13 - 36:15] Tell us about being an active pilot.
[36:15 - 36:16] How long have you been a pilot for?
[36:16 - 36:19] I've been a pilot for almost four years.
[36:19 - 36:20] Um, it's something- Four ...
[36:20 - 36:21] I always wanted to do when I was younger.
[36:21 - 36:22] Okay.
[36:22 - 36:28] But I, I took a couple flight lessons when I was in high school, and then that was it because it's so expensive.
[36:28 - 36:29] Right.
[36:29 - 36:31] Um, air quotes there.
[36:31 - 36:38] And I still, you know, five years ago or so, um, had that mental block that I'm never gonna be able to do that.
[36:38 - 36:39] That's too expensive.
[36:39 - 36:45] And I mentioned it one time, and then Christmas came, and I got a gift certificate for flying lessons.
[36:45 - 36:46] Oh.
[36:46 - 36:47] Amy got me flying lessons.
[36:47 - 36:49] Fast-forward, now we fly all over the place.
[36:49 - 36:53] We still fly commercial sometimes, uh, depending on what the situation is.
[36:53 - 37:03] Um, like we're going on an anniversary trip to the Bay Area, um, in July, and we can make that flight in our plane, but it's a long
[37:03 - 37:12] day for me, and flying over the desert in July is not fun 'cause once you get down to a certain altitude, it gets really hot.
[37:12 - 37:16] So we're flying commercial, but most of the time we fly ourselves.
[37:16 - 37:17] I love it.
[37:17 - 37:18] We've flown all over.
[37:18 - 37:25] We've flown literally from coast to coast, flew to the Dominican Republic with the kids and Amy three years ago.
[37:25 - 37:28] Two years ago, we flew to Iceland and back for vacation.
[37:28 - 37:29] Nice.
[37:29 - 37:30] Cool.
[37:30 - 37:30] I love it.
[37:30 - 37:34] It, it's f- It's a lot of freedom.
[37:34 - 37:35] I can get in.
[37:35 - 37:37] I can just go somewhere.
[37:37 - 37:37] Um, it...
[37:37 - 37:43] A lot of times people say that they think that I'm probably saving a lot of money 'cause I'm not flying commercial.
[37:43 - 37:44] That is totally not it.
[37:44 - 37:47] It is very- No, that is not true whatsoever.
[37:47 - 37:49] No, especially if it's just me going or me and her.
[37:49 - 37:50] Oh, yeah.
[37:50 - 37:52] But if it's all five of us...
[37:52 - 37:54] But that, it's not about the cost.
[37:54 - 37:59] It's about the experience and having more r- I...
[37:59 - 38:08] The, the views when you're up front, and you have the full cockpit view, I mean, Zach, you know this, are so much different than looking out that little bitty porthole on the side- Yep ...
[38:08 - 38:09] of a plane.
[38:09 - 38:11] And it's so challenging.
[38:11 - 38:14] There's so much to learn about, like, weather and everything.
[38:14 - 38:14] Mm-hmm.
[38:14 - 38:16] It's like, it's fun.
[38:16 - 38:18] There's a lot to it, a lot to it.
[38:18 - 38:18] Yep.
[38:18 - 38:28] So one of the things Amy and I have been planning is after the kids are out of high school, um, at some point after they're out of high school, she and I are gonna take two
[38:28 - 38:35] or three months, and we're gonna take whatever plane we have at that point and fly all the way around the world.
[38:35 - 38:36] Nice.
[38:36 - 38:36] That's cool.
[38:36 - 38:39] So fly over Greenland, hit Europe, hit Africa, Asia.
[38:39 - 38:44] I wanna go all the way over to New Zealand, then back up through Japan and, and back.
[38:44 - 38:46] Um- That would be so cool.
[38:46 - 38:48] It, it'll be fun.
[38:48 - 38:52] And just to be able to, excuse me, be able to stop wherever we wanna stop, spend two days, spend three days- Yeah ...
[38:52 - 38:53] spend a week.
[38:53 - 39:03] I gotta tell you, if I can read body language, and I've known Zach for, like, five years now, as soon as you said, "Fly around and go to all these places,"
[39:03 - 39:03] he started moving.
[39:03 - 39:04] Yeah.
[39:04 - 39:05] So, like- That's cool ...
[39:05 - 39:07] he just put that on his bucket list.
[39:07 - 39:08] You could see him.
[39:08 - 39:08] All right.
[39:08 - 39:09] He started moving.
[39:09 - 39:09] Yeah.
[39:09 - 39:10] He's tucking his shirt in.
[39:10 - 39:14] He's like, "Man, I'm in." No, that's exciting.
[39:14 - 39:15] It's fun.
[39:15 - 39:15] That's- I love it.
[39:15 - 39:16] I love it.
[39:16 - 39:19] And then when I'm not doing that, um, I do jujitsu.
[39:19 - 39:26] I started, uh, training in jujitsu l- about a year and a half ago with my son, who actually just got his first, um, belt promotion last night.
[39:26 - 39:27] Oh, good for him.
[39:27 - 39:27] Nice.
[39:27 - 39:28] I'm super proud of him.
[39:28 - 39:37] He's a gray-white belt now, and it's a very humbling journey, um, getting your butt kicked all the time.
[39:37 - 39:40] Um, but I have learned a lot- Yeah, by people that are smaller than you, right, too.
[39:40 - 39:41] Like...
[39:41 - 39:43] Smaller and younger.
[39:43 - 39:43] Yeah.
[39:43 - 39:46] A lot of times I'm rolling with guys that are, like, in their early 20s-
[39:46 - 39:50] And, you know, I'm literally double their age, but, you know, it, I'm out there, I'm fighting.
[39:50 - 39:53] Um, it's a great, great thing.
[39:53 - 39:56] And sharing it with my son has been awesome because he sees me- That's great ...
[39:56 - 40:06] going through this and he sees the old guy out there rolling with them and, hey, you know, I'm getting beat up, but I get up, I tap out, get up, go roll again.
[40:06 - 40:06] Do it again.
[40:06 - 40:07] Get up.
[40:07 - 40:07] Yeah.
[40:07 - 40:08] Roll again.
[40:08 - 40:09] That's fantastic.
[40:09 - 40:10] Yeah, that's huge.
[40:10 - 40:14] I think that's great because people don't always get this.
[40:14 - 40:18] Your kids are watching what you're doing more so than they're listening to what you're saying.
[40:18 - 40:19] Oh, yeah.
[40:19 - 40:22] So you can get out there, get out there and you can say, "No, keep trying.
[40:22 - 40:27] You gotta do it." But you're actually out there trying and you're doing it, and you're getting your butt- Yeah ...
[40:27 - 40:27] kicked.
[40:27 - 40:29] And when you share it with them and they see that- Yeah ...
[40:29 - 40:33] you got back up, because it's easy when it's all rainbows and unicorns.
[40:33 - 40:34] Yeah.
[40:34 - 40:42] And it's easy sitting on the, on the bench on the side drinking soda and eating Doritos while they're getting their ass kicked out there, but if you're doing it with them- That's what you should be doing.
[40:42 - 40:42] Yeah.
[40:42 - 40:42] Yep.
[40:42 - 40:44] You know, being able to pivot is great.
[40:44 - 40:49] What is it, uh, Mike Tyson said, "Everyone's got a plan until they get punched in the face." Yep.
[40:49 - 40:49] Yep.
[40:49 - 40:49] You know?
[40:49 - 40:50] And it's very true.
[40:50 - 40:55] And then when you get your butt kicked and you're out there and you're humbled in that you're getting your butt kicked by somebody half your age.
[40:55 - 41:02] And I think what's interesting is, and you hit upon something, I hope people picked it up, is you picked it up a year and a half ago.
[41:02 - 41:03] If you're...
[41:03 - 41:04] What are you, in your late 30s, early 40s?
[41:04 - 41:06] I'm in my mid-40s.
[41:06 - 41:07] Okay, mid-40s.
[41:07 - 41:12] And so that means you were 43, give or take, when you started it.
[41:12 - 41:17] A lot of people when they get to thir- late 30s, early 40s start checking out.
[41:17 - 41:18] Mm-hmm.
[41:18 - 41:18] Mm-hmm.
[41:18 - 41:19] As far as the physical stuff- That's a good point ...
[41:19 - 41:22] the more difficult stuff, and here you are challenging yourself.
[41:22 - 41:23] So that's fantastic.
[41:23 - 41:28] And I, and for, I mean, accountability's sake, I was that.
[41:28 - 41:37] I, you know, was in the Marine Corps then got out, gained weight, ran a couple marathons, and then didn't do anything for over a decade, and my health showed.
[41:37 - 41:38] Mm.
[41:38 - 41:39] I, I was overweight.
[41:39 - 41:40] I just, it wasn't good.
[41:40 - 41:45] And I wasn't challenging myself, um, physically or mentally.
[41:45 - 41:52] And so one of the things I started doing, this was a couple years ago, I started seeking out things that are hard to do- Ah ...
[41:52 - 41:53] just because they're hard.
[41:53 - 41:54] Mm-hmm.
[41:54 - 41:56] Um, not as an ego trip of- Love it.
[41:56 - 41:56] Love it ...
[41:56 - 41:57] "Oh, I did this.
[41:57 - 42:00] You didn't do that." It's not about anything with anybody else.
[42:00 - 42:04] It's just doing things that are hard because that makes everything else easier.
[42:04 - 42:06] Makes your mental toughness so much better.
[42:06 - 42:06] Yeah.
[42:06 - 42:10] Creates, takes the friction off of other things and it strengthens your mind.
[42:10 - 42:11] Hell yeah.
[42:11 - 42:14] Doing hard- Now I also work out with a personal trainer three days a week lifting weights.
[42:14 - 42:17] And doing hard things makes you better at doing hard things.
[42:17 - 42:19] It's a skill just like anything else.
[42:19 - 42:20] Yep.
[42:20 - 42:21] Absolutely.
[42:21 - 42:31] And then what it is, is, you know, you've got y- y- you got, uh, SWAT or something like that, or Navy SEALs or something, they're constantly practicing so that when they have to do it in real life,
[42:31 - 42:33] well, they've practiced it already.
[42:33 - 42:33] Yep.
[42:33 - 42:38] So if you practice hard, when real life comes up you can say, "Yeah, I can handle that.
[42:38 - 42:39] Just get me the..." Call him.
[42:39 - 42:40] "He's the attorney, he'll handle it.
[42:40 - 42:43] Hand, give him this paperwork and tell him to call me when he needs me." Yep.
[42:43 - 42:44] Um, yeah.
[42:44 - 42:45] That is the- Sorry ...
[42:45 - 42:55] what people don't realize going through boot camp, I can't speak about any of the other branches, but Marine Corps boot camp, the stress of it is simply to get you used to operating in a stressful environment.
[42:55 - 42:55] Yep.
[42:55 - 42:56] Ah, yeah.
[42:56 - 43:00] If you're used to operating in a stressful environment, things come much easier.
[43:00 - 43:02] You can slow everything down.
[43:02 - 43:02] Yep.
[43:02 - 43:03] Yeah, 'cause you've had practice at it.
[43:03 - 43:04] Makes complete sense.
[43:04 - 43:04] Yeah.
[43:04 - 43:05] Right.
[43:05 - 43:11] And if you can't, you break down if somebody's screaming at you, what are you gonna do if somebody's shooting at you?
[43:11 - 43:11] Right?
[43:11 - 43:12] Yep.
[43:12 - 43:13] Exactly.
[43:13 - 43:15] Exactly.
[43:15 - 43:16] Oh, that's funny.
[43:16 - 43:17] Okay.
[43:17 - 43:27] Do you have any final words of wisdom that you can give to people who are stuck in the try and get the least expensive, uh, materials for their house versus getting- ...
[43:27 - 43:27] better materials?
[43:27 - 43:29] Something you can do to get them to maybe see the light.
[43:29 - 43:39] I'm gonna say value your time more because you're spending a lot of time to save nickels when you can be making a lot more money by using that time for higher value things.
[43:39 - 43:41] So value your time better.
[43:41 - 43:43] Okay.
[43:43 - 43:43] Awesome.
[43:43 - 43:44] Fantastic.
[43:44 - 43:44] I like that.
[43:44 - 43:45] All right.
[43:45 - 43:47] It-- John, we really appreciate your time.
[43:47 - 43:48] It's been fantastic.
[43:48 - 43:49] I know you're busy.
[43:49 - 43:51] You're running, you know, two companies if you will.
[43:51 - 43:57] And I know you, you've split it up, but you're running two companies and your time is very valuable.
[43:57 - 43:59] We really appreciate you spending it with us.
[43:59 - 44:06] For everybody who's interested, uh, in getting in touch with John, John, can you give us your contact information and we'll put it in the show notes as well.
[44:06 - 44:07] Yeah, by all means.
[44:07 - 44:09] And tha- first, thanks for having me on.
[44:09 - 44:10] I really, really appreciate it.
[44:10 - 44:10] Absolutely.
[44:10 - 44:17] Um, easiest way to get in touch with me are either Facebook or Instagram on both, um, theflippingitguy.
[44:17 - 44:18] Okay.
[44:18 - 44:18] Nice.
[44:18 - 44:22] Sometimes people think it's the flipping it guy, but it's supposed to be the flipping it guy.
[44:22 - 44:26] There's a story behind that as well, but we'll share that another day.
[44:26 - 44:27] Okay.
[44:27 - 44:27] Awesome.
[44:27 - 44:28] Fantastic.
[44:28 - 44:29] John, thank you very much for your time.
[44:29 - 44:29] Yeah.
[44:29 - 44:30] We appreciate it, man.
[44:30 - 44:30] Yeah.
[44:30 - 44:31] Thanks, John.
[44:31 - 44:31] Thanks.
[44:31 - 44:31] I appreciate y'all.
[44:31 - 44:31] Appreciate it.
[44:31 - 44:32] Have a good one.
[44:32 - 44:33] You too.